Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

by Christ Alone 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    @ Jamie, What about Yeshua, is that the same as Yashiya?

    @ elephant and christ alone and retrovirus,

    I thought that only the Cherubs and Seraphs were pictured as having wings in the scriptures? Am I wrong? Plus that was in a vision, so who knows what a spirit being looks like. Also the angels on the Ark of the covenant had wings, but again the tabernacle and temple were all representations of the heavenly realm to help humans grasp the concept of what goes on in the spirit realm. So there is no reason to conclude that any angels had real wings. Any time angels appeared they looked like men and never had wings. There is also no scripture that equates Yashiya with Michael the Archangel. That is what the JW's " feel " is true. The fact is the Bible never says Yeshua is the Archangel anywhere, right? I know what you are saying Christ Alone, I had to give a number 3 assignment at the KH " Is Jesus Michael the Archangel " I learned that the scriptures do not teach this from my studies. This was before I woke up to TTATT. The " Bible Teach " book does teach that Jesus=Michael. I never answered the question in my assignment and there were some confused persons in the audience.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Elephant, you are trying to be sly in your responses, and they just don't fly. I showed you how Hebrews flatly states that Jesus is not an angel. Yet your response was, but JWs believe he is an angel. Yeah so? Moonies believe Sun Myung Moon was the Messiah. Doesn't make it true. Nor accurate.

    The whole point is that JWs do NOT need scriptural proof of ANYTHING. They believe that as long as they follow the Watchtower, they will be saved. That's it. So if they WT says that Michael is Jesus, they believe it. If the Watchtower says that Jesus used the name "Jehovah", they believe it. If the Watchtower says that the 2+2=7, they will believe it. And you are case and point. You are trying to distance yourself and talk as if you are a third party by calling JWs "they" and "them". But we all know that you are one of them.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    2. interesting idea…so your belief is that Jesus IS superior to Jehovah? (because his names is above all others.)

    The scripture states:

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1)

    Jesus is in the express image of the Father, meaning of course that were you to see the Father and the Son as Stephen did, that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. The Father, however, is not Jehovah. They are equal in power and glory, but not dominion. The Father's dominion spans the Universe and His dominion is ever growing. Jesus' (Jehovah's) dominion also will grow, but will never equal that of the Father. Jehovah's dominion also is part of the Father's dominion, so this shows they are One in Power and Glory.

    The Father's dominion, however, contains populated worlds greater in number than the sand upon the seashores. They are greater than can be numbered by man, but they are His and He knows them. The Son also has dominion, and He is One with the Father in purpose, power and glory.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I know you discussing a point with Elephant, but am I right or wrong?

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    No, Elephant, I am not saying that Jesus is superior to Jehovah. I am saying that the NAME of Jesus is greater than every name. And that includes the NAME Jehovah. JWs think that Jehovah is a referrence to the Father only. That has been shown to not be the case.

    In the New Testament we have the name Jesus Christ which means God (Jehovah) is salvation Acts 4:12 " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. "

  • In Zechariah 12 JEHOVAH is speaking (verses 1 and 4). In verse 10 Jehovah says, "They shall look upon ME whom they have pierced." This can refer to no one other than Christ (compare John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7).

  • The Jehovah of the Old Testament declares Himself to be the First and the Last: "Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel and his redeemer the Jehovah of hosts; I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God: (Isaiah 44:6 and see Isaiah 41:4; 48:11-12). Who is declared to be "the first and the last" on the pages of the New Testament (see Revelation 1:8,11,17,18; 22:13)?

  • In Isaiah 6:5 the prophet said, "Mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts." Isaiah saw JEHOVAH! The Apostle John referred to this same event and made it very clear that the Person whom Isaiah saw was actually Jesus Christ: "These things said Esaias [Isaiah], when he saw His [Christ’s] glory, and spake of Him (referring in the context to Christ)" – John 12:41.

  • In Psalm 23:1 David declared that JEHOVAH is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep. According to the New Testament, Who is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep (John 10:11,14: Hebrews 13:20)? Also, the Old Testament repeatedly refers to Jehovah as Israel's ROCK (Deuteronomy 32:3, 4, 18; Psalm 18:2; Psalm 62:1-2; etc.). The New Testament clearly identifies this ROCK as Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4)!

  • In Exodus 3:14-15 we learn that JEHOVAH is the great "I AM." According to the Gospel of John, Who is the great "I AM" (see John 6:35; 8:12; 8:24; 8:58; 10:9; 10:11; 11:25; 14:6; 18:5-6)?

  • In Isaiah 43:10-11 and 45:21 JEHOVAH declares Himself to be the ONLY SAVIOUR. There is no other Saviour besides Him! According to the New Testament, Who is the ONLY SAVIOUR (Acts 4:10-12)?

  • In Isaiah 45:21-22 JEHOVAH says, "Look unto ME and be ye saved...there is none else." In John 3:14-16 we are told to look unto the crucified One to be saved!

  • In Isaiah 45:21-23 JEHOVAH says, "that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." In Philippians 2:9-11 this passage in Isaiah is applied to Christ, the One before Whom all shall someday bow!

  • In Isaiah 24:23 and Zephaniah 3:15-17 we learn that JEHOVAH Himself will reign in Jerusalem during the coming kingdom age and will be in the midst of His people. What does the New Testament tell us about the identity of this future, millennial King (Revelation 19:11-16; 20:4,6)?

  • In Isaiah 40:3 we learn that John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the coming of Jehovah. In Mark 1:1-3 the same passage is applied to Christ (John the Baptist prepared the way for Christ).

  • In Isaiah 8:13-14 prophetically states that JEHOVAH will be "for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence." In 1 Peter 2:7-8 these verses in Isaiah are applied to Jesus Christ.

  • Compare Joel 2:32 with Acts 2:21,36 and Romans 10:9,13. Who is the LORD (Jehovah) upon whose Name sinners should call ?

    The point is that there is overwhelming evidence that Jehovah is a name for God. And many of the passages just given show that when the OT was speaking about Jehovah, it was in fact applied to Jesus.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Data-Dog, you are right! Only the Cherubim and Seraphim and the 4 living creatures are spoken of as having wings. Interestingly, I don't believe that Cherubim or Seraphim or the living creatures are ever spoken of as actually being angels. They are spoken of as creatures, but never have the word "angel" applied to them. I don't think I'm wrong on this...although I could be. Also, even though angels are said to fly in heaven, nowhere can I see that the bible says they have wings.

    As far as I can see, Cherubs and Seraphs show up in the garden of eden, on the ark of the covenent, in various visions, and in Revelation. But I can't seem to find anything that calls them "angels". This sort of leads me to believe that they are a different sort of creature all together.

  • Elephant
    Elephant

    retro -

    Hi again Elephant

    Circumstances don't dictate what people will become, true. Yet it's well researched and documented that prople raised in over-controlled (or micromanaged?) or abusive environments are more likely to become tyrants or victims themselves. Do you think we should just ignore this substantial risk?

    Again, the word substantial does not denote absolute…but to follow your line of thinking, the effects of environments are in fact ill when they are abusive…say for example, a jail or a an underground bunker for imprisonment purposes…I wouldn’t rule out that there are extremist religions comparable to providing such environments…but its silly to compare the JWs to one of these…as far as I know, anyone can leave the religion without having to worry of being thrown in jail…

    answer- not if you believe that it IS a satan dominated world...if you dont, it shouldnt be much of a problem...

    It's not that simple; there are many stages a person goes through when changing a fundamental belief. Also if the person has been isolated from that world. . .yes, it can be a big problem.

    Well here is an idea I’m finding to be very predominant in these posts…that ‘freedom’ is a long and arduous task without any assurances that it can be attained…one that’s unconvincing…if ‘freedom’ is being dangled just outside of the religion, why is it so hard to attain, yet JW’s will convincingly (and happily) repeat to you that they are in fact free…

    I'm puzzled! Where have I argued in favour of mind control? Choice or not is addressed above.

    Sorry, others’ argument for mind control…

    ...or ...your eye has become simple after all...

    Now if I were a JW that would be a compliment, I think. As it is I'll just say that argument by . . . is pretty simple too, and I've seen it before here.

    …a simple eye denotes a simple mind, no? are you not looking for a simple resolution to this conundrum of elusive freedom?

    By the way, I appreciate your continuing responses…

    Christ alone- (This is in reference to your previous response)

    Hebrews 1:1-4

    New International Version (NIV)

    After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

    -nowhere in this scripture does it say “ Jesus is not an angel”, in fact, it says he BECAME superior to the angels AS THE NAME became superior, drawing comparisons to its elevating state from previous spots on the totem pole…thus denoting various previous possibilities…

    English Standard Version(©2001)And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    -again, this scripture does not say “Jesus is not angel”.

    So in summary, these scriptures are stating that Jesus (in relation to angels) BECAME superior to angels (just as I can be your superior in a company, though we are both still men) and that angels WORSHIP him, nothing more…

    Now…you can INFER many different things from just these verses, just like I can…but neither you nor I can say here is FLAT proof that THIS is so…the scripture would have to say, “Jesus was never, is, never will be an angel”…everything else is interpretation…

    …again, we can INFER a myriad of theories (beliefs for you and me) but that little word (faith) creeps into the equation yet again when it comes to defending said belief…

    ...in regards to your last post, i'm not quite seeing much a different understanding in regards to what Jesus represents as our saviour...you are correct, he is our saviour and it is through him that we can obtain salvation...i dont disagree with that.

  • Elephant
    Elephant

    data dog-

    you wrote-

    I learned that the scriptures do not teach this from my studies. This was before I woke up to TTATT. The " Bible Teach " book does teach that Jesus=Michael. I never answered the question in my assignment and there were some confused persons in the audience. -

    ...and i gather you didn't find any scriptures in your studies that absolutely ruled out Jesus as being archangel either...see how easy it is to argue for or against this idea?

    on a side note...if the assignment calls for confirmation of Jesus as archangel, it is PRECISELY because it wants you to do...just that. You were referring to a theocratic school meeting for JW's right? at their k.h. no?

    but you apparently dont have enough conviction or confidence in your 'findings' to refuse presenting what you dont believe its true...what you interpreted as confusion could have been uncomfort for your lack of cohesion and logic...

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    neither you nor I can say here is FLAT proof that THIS is so…the scripture would have to say, “Jesus was never, is, never will be an angel”…everything else is interpretation…

    It is apparent that you don't have a knowledge of the context of Hebrews. Hebrews was written at a time when gnostics were claiming that Jesus was an angel. Did you know that? The very thing JWs are teaching now is what the writer of Hebrews was writing against. You conveniently skipped over vs 5-8 which says: "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten You.'? And again, 'I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me.'?

    v6 - "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'

    v7 - "And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.'

    v8 - "But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.

    The writer of Hebrews is specifically telling the readers that JESUS IS NOT AN ANGEL. This is his whole argument. To NONE of the angels did God ever say "You are my Son". In fact in vs8 the Father calls Jesus "GOD". No, Jesus is not an angel, and Hebrews is direct proof.

    Your logic here is flawed. I could also say "Jesus was never, is, never will be a dog". The burden of proof is on YOU to tell me why Jesus IS an angel, when the scriptures never call him one. I don't have to prove to you that Jesus was not a flower, and pig, or a fluffy white happy cloud. Logic does not work that way. It describes what IS, not what is NOT.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    ...and i gather you didn't find any scriptures in your studies that absolutely ruled out Jesus as being archangel either...see how easy it is to argue for

    or against this idea?

    I just gave you a scripture that shows that Jesus was NOT an angel. Hebrews asks, "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten You.'? And again, 'I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me.'?

    That was pretty easy. Here is another proof that Jesus is not Michael: Daniel 10:13, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

    ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES! Meaning there are others. Plus, John 3:16 shows that Jesus is God's ONE AND ONLY Son. He is completely unique.

    Here is another: In Hebrews 2:5 it says that the world is not [and will not be] in subjection to an angel. This makes it clear that no angel will ever rule in God's kingdom.

    Here is another: Jude 1:9, " But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.)

    Micheal did not rebuke the devil. Hmmm...Jesus did though...Matthew 4:10 is an example. Besides this, ALL AUTHORITY, including the authority to rebuke the devil, has been given to Jesus (Matt 28:18)

    Interestingly, the Watchtower did not always teach that Michael and Jesus were one and the same. “Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God )…” (1879 WT, p. 4).

    I believe you are the one standing with a lack of evidence, Elephant. Boo Yah

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