Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

by Christ Alone 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Elephant

retro-
As well as being unable to maintain your line of argument it seems you misuse the words "evidence" and "reason". All your point comes down to "you are wrong, Christ Alone is wrong, I'm right whatever faith is based on" without a shred of support let alone evidence.
-as to your first point, you only gave me two choices
"So please tell, are you an apostate, or do you base your faith on evidence and reason? "
...again...i won't call myself an apostate..hence the second choice...
as for the second point...well...as you can see, i too used the same "evidence" and "reason" that christ alone presented forth...
DATA-DOG

Still waiting for an apology from Elephant. Elephant has not adressed the fact that it is dishonest for the WTBTS to expect it's followers to believe a teaching as " truth " that has not been proven to be so. Also the fact remains that failure to accept the WTBTS's theory is a punishable offence of being labled 1) spiritually weak ( at the very least ) or 2) Apostate hater of YHWH deserving of everlasting death.
DATA-DOG
Retrovirus

Hi Elephant
...again...i won't call myself an apostate..hence the second choice...
Ok, fine, you don't call yourself an apostate. But if you are a jw what are you doing here?
as for the second point...well...as you can see, i too used the same "evidence" and "reason" that christ alone presented forth...
Now that's not correct. Christ Alone said that nowhere in the Bible is Jesus presented as an angel, and nowhere in the Bible does Jesus call God Jehovah. These are facts. You have been unable to refute them. And yet you claim to base your faith on evidence and reason.
Elephant

retro-
i appreciate that you continue to interact with me...
...your question as to why i'm here if i'm not an apostate is only logical if you concede that you are one...but i dont think you or anyone here would do that...
...and it was christ alone that introduced this topic...he argues that it is I that holds the burden of proof, even though HE introduced the topic...i have simply asked him to prove OTHERWISE (that Jesus is NOT an angel)...and he has not been able to do this yet... (see my counterpoints.)

data dog-
"Still waiting for an apology from Elephant. Elephant has not adressed the fact that it is dishonest for the WTBTS to expect it's followers to believe a teaching as " truth " that has not been proven to be so. Also the fact remains that failure to accept the WTBTS's theory is a punishable offence of being labled 1) spiritually weak ( at the very least ) or 2) Apostate hater of YHWH deserving of everlasting death. "
-if i offended you personally, i apologize...
...now, why would it be 'dishonest' for the wtbts to expect its followers to believe a teaching as 'truth' that has not been proven so? they ARE followers are they NOT? ...again, we are implying the concept of choice...perhaps you are confusing the word 'followers' with something else...something more...sinister...
...a 'punishable offense'?... you state the two ways that this punishment is carried out...1) labeled spiritually weak...is this true? if it isnt, then you have no concern there... 2)apostate hater of YHWH deserving of everlasting death...well...are you apostate? and deserving of everlasting death? if these 'punishments' are not compatible with your understanding, then there is a VERY easy way to solve this problem...leave...
...but you haven't done that yet...in fact you just participated in an assignment for the VERY SAME org that you fear will 'punish' you...why?
besty

elephant - thanks for spending some time on JWN - nice to meet you - I note that you havent started any threads yet - perhaps you could start a thread about yourself and what has brought you to JWN -
watching with interest to hear more about your personal journey away from the Watchtower
DATA-DOG

Apology accepted
You said, " ..well...are you apostate? and deserving of everlasting death? if these 'punishments' are not compatible with your understanding, then there is a VERY easy way to solve this problem...leave...
What is the scriptural definition of apostasy? Does the WTBTS definition of apostasy agree with the scriptures? If a teaching is false, how can a follower of Christ considered an apostate for refusing to believe it? What is more important, simply leaving or helping others to see the truth of Christ's teachings? Are we not indebted to one another as Christians? Do you feel it is proper to question an individuals love for thier creator simply because they do not believe in dogma? Are Christians required to believe un-truths?
Watchtower 86 4/1 " Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah's Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth. The Roman Catholic pope, as well as the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, professes such beliefs, yet their church memberships are exclusive of each other. Likewise, simply professing to have such beliefs would not authorize one to be known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. "
DOGMAa : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenetb : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma>c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church .
Elephant

data dog-
you quoted a paragraph straight from the org you dont want any part of? ...as your quote made ABUNDANTLY clear, the org has its parameters (very clear ones)...interestingly...so does any other type of entity, org, club, religion, company, group, etc...etc..
...it's simple see...want to be a WILLING member of our club,org,religion,company,group, etc (whatever you wish to call it) come on and join...if you don't, then stop!....i can assure that if you don't want to be a willing member NOBODY will make it impossible to leave...in fact, break enough of the 'guidelines' and 'requirements'...and we'll HELP you leave...
...now, if the WTBTS definition of apostasy doesn't suit you, ignore it...it's YOUR mind and YOUR opinion that matters to YOU, right?
...but then you wrote something rather puzzling-
"What is more important, simply leaving or helping others to see the truth of Christ's teachings? "
... by this you must mean that you're contemplating taking on the 'mission' to change said entity's established parameters? ...a very ambitious undertaking to say the least my friend...
...and then there is this bit
"Are we not indebted to one another as Christians? "
...by 'christians' you mean the folks here on this site that are disgruntled with the org? if so...i wouldnt worry too much about owing them anything anymore...but if by 'christians' you mean those folks IN the org, jw's?...i must ask...if YOU already consider them christians ...then what could they possibly need from you?...
Retrovirus

Hi Elephant,
i appreciate that you continue to interact with me...
You're welcome.
...your question as to why i'm here if i'm not an apostate is only logical if you concede that you are one...but i dont think you or anyone here would do that...
Don't be too sure. apostacy can reasonably be regarded as a badge of honour. was Martin Luther an apostate? Anyway I could be seen as an apostate, in the sense that my spiritual beliefs changed over time and don't exactly conform to those of the church I was raised in.
So, please seiously consider Besty's advice and tell us a bit about yourself and why you are here.
...and it was christ alone that introduced this topic...he argues that it is I that holds the burden of proof, even though HE introduced the topic...i have simply asked him to prove OTHERWISE (that Jesus is NOT an angel)...and he has not been able to do this yet... (see my counterpoints.)
Sure, I've read your posts. With respect, you need to read up about logical fallacies. The OP didn't argue that Jesus was or wasn't an angel, but that the Bible does not say that Jesus was an angel. See, that is defensible because we can agree on the content of the Bible. Now it's not enough to select a few verses and indicate that they may suggest something; for this article to be an honest belief statement of a Bible-based religion, it must show where the Bible supports what is in the article.
hope this helps. Retro
DATA-DOG

Elephant,
What do Christians need from each other, please tell me? Love, honesty, support encouragement based on truth, not man made creeds? As far as others on this board who do not share my faith in a creator, why would I owe them any less than I owe you, which is complete honesty. I am not above any of them. MY thoughts do not matter, My views do not matter. All that matters is what Our Heavenly Father reveals through his Son and his Holy Spirit. When men's teachings conflict with our Father's words and the clear unambiguous truths taught by Christ Jesus, the I must obey God rather than men. I do not serve an Oranization or corporation, or any man or group of men. There are many fine people within the Organization, many that I love. Sadly, like yourself they still need a visible center of worship. It is one thing to claim faith in your Heavenly Father, and his son who is in charge of EVERYTHING for the time being, and it is another matter to really act upon it. Christ Jesus will guide me by means of Holy Spirit when the time is right. No man made organization can claim the position of mediator in place of Christ. ALL False religion will be done away with in due time. Anyone who persecutes Christ's brothers will be held accountable. As far as the friends go, Christ knows his sheep, and he knows who the decievers are. It is sad that you claim to be a Christian yet suggest you don't owe these " wordly " people anything. You are above them I suppose? You are far from prepared for what you will face in the future. You do not know Christ at all, and you do not know his Father. Please stop serving men, it is not worth it. Humble yourself under Christ's hand while there is still time.
Also being part of our Heavenly Father's family is not a club, with parameters. We are under the law of the Christ, you should know that......
Elephant

retro-
good morning,
Sure, I've read your posts. With respect, you need to read up about logical fallacies. The OP didn't argue that Jesus was or wasn't an angel, but that the Bible does not say that Jesus was an angel. See, that is defensible because we can agree on the content of the Bible. Now it's not enough to select a few verses and indicate that they may suggest something; for this article to be an honest belief statement of a Bible-based religion, it must show where the Bible supports what is in the article.
...i'm interested in seeing you understanding now...would you mind providing your interpretation of wether Jesus is or not an angel?
thanks!
datadog-
What do Christians need from each other, please tell me? Love, honesty, support encouragement based on truth, not man made creeds?
...i'm glad you answered your own question...please explain why you didnt do this for the ENTIRE congregation when you gave your last assignment based on your 'findings' regarding Jesus and Michael, archangel? here was a perfect opportunity to show your honesty, support and love...but you didn't...why?
As far as others on this board who do not share my faith in a creator, why would I owe them any less than I owe you, which is complete honesty. I am not above any of them. MY thoughts do not matter, My views do not matter. All that matters is what Our Heavenly Father reveals through his Son and his Holy Spirit. When men's teachings conflict with our Father's words and the clear unambiguous truths taught by Christ Jesus, the I must obey God rather than men.
...YOUR key words here are 'who do not share my faith'...yes datadog, there are MANY in this world that do not share your faith...there are many who also don't share our jw faith...apparently including you...and you are correct that the only thing that matters is what our heavely father reveals through his son and holy spirit...we BELIEVE he has done this...it's our org, we CAN do that...that is why, as you state, we feel free (even responsible) to obey God when man tells us to stop spreading what we BELIEVE is a true message...
I do not serve an Oranization or corporation, or any man or group of men.
...yet there you are...giving assignments FOR an org...do you still 'preach' door to door too?...
There are many fine people within the Organization, many that I love. Sadly, like yourself they still need a visible center of worship.
...explain why this is SAD datadog?...i see plenty of happy faces at our k.h., WHY should we not have a visible center of worship (where interestingly, you seem to attend to as well)?...
It is sad that you claim to be a Christian yet suggest you don't owe these " wordly " people anything. You are above them I suppose?
...actually, YOU indicated that you owe 'christians' your honesty and love...

Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

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