Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel 140 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    aChristian wrote,

    I believe God may also have asked Noah to store enough food for all such people.
    You never responded to my earlier argument against this claim. Will you do so now? Here it is, again:

    Why would the Genesis writer not tell us that God had Noah plan for a possibly huge number of passengers, and that the huge space was not meant for the huge number of animals, two of every type over the face of the globe? Nobody on this list seriously believes in your theory, and there isn't a single Biblical scholar anywhere in the world, or from any time in the past four thousand years, who believes what you do, aChristian. How do you account for that?

    Also, how do you explain why the Genesis writer tells us that God told Noah to put food on the ark for the animals and for Noah and his family, and says nothing about putting enough food on the ark to feed all of the possibly huge number of repentant people who might come to the ark?

    Do you believe the Genesis writer was inspired by God, or not? Do you believe that he was writing the Word of God, or not? If you believe he was writing the Word of God, then how do you explain the important omissions? Why would God not make sure that his writer made it clear to you and me that the large space was for the repentant sinners who might come, and why did he not tell the writer that he told Noah also to put a huge amount of food on board for those people?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • stocwach
    stocwach

    AChristian,

    I understand the point you are trying to make with Peter's notation of Noah being a preacher of righteousness, however, there is no question that this can only be pure speculation, because there is no OT scripture that alludes to Noah preaching of imending doom.

    Noah no doubt however was a preacher of righteousness right up until the time that God commanded him to build an ark because he would destroy all mankind due to their evil ways. It appears that God had administered his judgement at that point.

  • stocwach
    stocwach

    Faithful Jah says:

    It seems to me that you (Joseph Alward) want to argue against anything and everything in the Bible, and against anything any Bible believer has to say. By doing so you sometimes end up looking less than brillant.
    LOL. Right on the nail. Check this out for confirmation of this point:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23607&site=3

    Joseph: How come you never answer anybody when someone asks you a legitimate question on your motivation for your never ending and relentless questioning of the Bible and God? Surely all your "means" must point to some "end"? I think everyone would love to know what the "end" is.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Stocwach,

    You wrote: I understand the point you are trying to make with Peter's notation of Noah being a preacher of righteousness, however, there is no question that this can only be pure speculation.

    Of course it is. Sometimes the only way to understand a situation when we have not been clearly given all of its details is to speculate. Science tells us that Noah's flood could not have been global. So, if the Bible's account of the flood is true, we have to read it as descibing a large local flood that wiped out all life in the land of Noah, outside of the ark. If that is true, then we have to answer some reasonable questions by means at speculation, since the Bible does not give us their answers but does hint at them. One such question is, "Why would God have asked Noah to build such a large ark if it was only being built to carry eight people and the few species of animals in the land of Noah?" The speculative answer I have offered to this question is based upon hints contained in the Bible.

    It is certainly funny how Joseph will absolutely not permit any Christian to speculate on anything. For much of his Bible bashing is filled with speculation.

    Joseph,

    As Faithful advised you earlier, let it go. How many other people here have to laugh at you before you realize you are, as he said, making yourself look "less than brilliant"?

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward
    As Faithful advised you earlier, let it go.

    As I expected, aChristian has, for the third time, refused to answer a direct question which relate to his ridiculous claim that God expected hordes of repentant sinners to come to the ark. He knows that he cannot defend this claim--which he obviously did not give a great deal of thought to, so he's desperately trying to avoid answering my questions.

    I repeat, aChristian, nobody on this list--and that includes your supporters Faithful and waiting--really believes that the ark was not made large to accommodate two of every kind of animal on earth. Nobody believes that God planned a large ark to make room for a flood of repentant sinners--except you.

    If you don't wish to answer the questions below, then forum members will have the right to assume that you cannot. Here are the questions, for the fourth time. Will you answer them without evasion, once and for all?

    1. Why would the Genesis writer not tell us that God had Noah plan for a possibly huge number of passengers, and that the huge space was not meant for the huge number of animals, two of every type over the face of the globe?

    2. Nobody on this list seriously believes in your theory, and there isn't a single Biblical scholar anywhere in the world, or from any time in the past four thousand years, who believes what you do, aChristian. How do you account for that?

    3. How do you explain why the Genesis writer tells us that God told Noah to put food on the ark for the animals and for Noah and his family, and says nothing about putting enough food on the ark to feed all of the possibly huge number of repentant people who might come to the ark?

    4. Do you believe the Genesis writer was inspired by God, or not?

    5. Do you believe that he was writing the Word of God, or not?

    6. If you believe he was writing the Word of God, then how do you explain the important omissions?

    7. Why would God not make sure that his writer made it clear to you and me that the large space was for the repentant sinners who might come, and why did he not tell the writer that he told Noah also to put a huge amount of food on board for those people?

    8. More importantly, please also tell us how God could have expected any of the sinners to know about the chance for redemption and the escape opportunity the ark presented.

    They didn't know, did they, aChristian? If you believe they did know, will you please say so, and also tell us how you know this?

    9. If you choose not to answer all of these questions, why should the forum not assume that you're trying to conceal the fact that your "land of Noah" theory is unsupportable?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    All right Joseph,

    I'll play along with you. Solely for your benefit, as I do not think anyone else here has had such a hard time understanding what I have written. But, since God has shown me much patience, I will try to show you the same. However, God's patience has limits and so does mine. So this will be the last time I respond to you in this thread, or probably in any thread, since as some here have just pointed out, there seems to be little point in a Bible believer conversing with you on any subject.

    1. Why would the Genesis writer not tell us that God had Noah plan for a possibly huge number of passengers, and that the huge space was not meant for the huge number of animals, two of every type over the face of the globe?

    The writer of Genesis, traditionally understood to be Moses, apparently combined elements of at least two flood stories, which had been preserved by the Hebrew people he helped to free from Egypt, into his one story of Noah's flood. These flood stories had probably been preserved only as oral traditions which originated not with Noah himself, but with some of his descendants who may have heard Noah or his son Shem tell parts of what happened before, during and after the flood. If the oral traditions which the writer of Genesis based his flood account on did not preserve all of the details of Noah's flood the writer of Genesis would not have been able to include any such unmentioned details, unless they were directly revealed to him by God, which they may not have been.

    2. Nobody on this list seriously believes in your theory, and there isn't a single Biblical scholar anywhere in the world, or from any time in the past four thousand years, who believes what you do, aChristian. How do you account for that?

    I account for that by saying it is not true. What I have here suggested as an answer to your question was not my own idea, though I wouldn't mind taking credit for it. It is the belief of at least three highly respected and highly credentialed biblical scholars whom I have spoken with personally at some length on these and other matters. All three of these men have published their belief that the flood of Noah's day was an actual historical event which was confined to "the land of Noah" which is usually referred to as "Mesopotamia." I have mentioned their names and the names of their written works dealing with this subject matter on this forum before when it has been discussed in the past. If you really need to know the names of some other people who believe as I do, you can use this forum's search feature and read what I have written about the "flood" here before. At this time I would rather discuss ideas than the people who hold those ideas. I do not want to appear to be a follower of men or appear to be saying that we should believe something because "Doctor so and so" or "Professor so and so" believes it.

    The reason nearly all Bible scholars and commentators in centuries past believed the flood was global was because not until very recently have the findings of scientists categorically proven that if Noah's flood actually occurred it could not have been a global one. These findings have compelled many modern day Bible readers and many modern day "Bible scholars" to take a closer look at the text of Genesis and see if it might actually be describing a large local flood. Before the findings of modern science compelled believers in a historical Noah's flood to consider the subject matter of "local vs. global" this issue was not an issue. For, as I freely admit, a simple reading of the Genesis account as it is commonly translated, using words like "mountains" and "earth" to translate Hebrew words which are usually translated elsewhere in the Old Testament as "hills" and "land," never really gave anyone any reason to believe the Bible was not describing a global flood.

    3. How do you explain why the Genesis writer tells us that God told Noah to put food on the ark for the animals and for Noah and his family, and says nothing about putting enough food on the ark to feed all of the possibly huge number of repentant people who might come to the ark?

    As I have already said, God may have told Noah to do so, but everything He said to Noah may not have been preserved in the flood traditions which the writer of Genesis based his flood account upon. Or, as Waiting said, God's words to Noah could have been understood by Noah as having implied that he should make such preparations. Or, as I have also said, God may never have told Noah to make such preparations or even implied that they should be made. God may have waited to give such instructions to Noah until He saw that some residents of Noah's land were repenting and that there would be a need for Noah to bring additional food onto the ark. If suddenly at the last minute hoards of people decided to repent God could have slightly delayed the flood until enough food was brought on board to feed all those last minute repenters. Or He could have canceled his Judgment altogether, as He did after Jonah had prophesied for forty days that Nineveh would be destroyed and many in that city repented.

    4. Do you believe the Genesis writer was inspired by God, or not?

    Certainly.

    5. Do you believe that he was writing the Word of God, or not?

    Yes.

    6. If you believe he was writing the Word of God, then how do you explain the important omissions?

    I don't see them as important. You are the only one I know of who seems to think such things amount to "important omissions." I don't take your opinion of such things too seriously, since I know you are one who picks apart virtually every passage of scripture in one way or another.

    7. Why would God not make sure that his writer made it clear to you and me that the large space was for the repentant sinners who might come, and why did he not tell the writer that he told Noah also to put a huge amount of food on board for those people?

    Because, as I said, I don't see that such details are that important to the story. I think it goes without saying, and always has, that if some people at the time of Noah's flood had repented that Noah would have found room for them on the ark.

    8. More importantly, please also tell us how God could have expected any of the sinners to know about the chance for redemption and the escape opportunity the ark presented.

    Because, as I said, and as the Bible tells us, Noah served as "a preacher of righteousness" to the people of his land before the flood. And, as I have also already said, and as others here have had no problem in understanding me to say, the message "preachers of righteousness" have always preached is, "Repent and be saved." So Noah must have preached that message to the people of his land before the flood.

    Joseph, I think I have clearly answered all of your questions. Some of them several times. If you now want to say that I have not answered them and claim credit for "winning" this "debate" be my guest. Or I suppose you can now start picking on a different aspect of my understanding of Noah's flood or some other part of the Bible. If you do, and if I do not respond to such criticisms, my not responding should not be understood to mean I have no answers for you. It should just be understood to mean that I do not think any answers on such matters could ever satisfy you. On this I certainly hope I am wrong.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    aChristian vows,

    So this will be the last time I respond to you in this thread, or probably in any thread, since as some here have just pointed out, there seems to be little point in a Bible believer conversing with you on any subject.
    Well, this is certainly a first. I'm surprised that you choose to tuck tail and run, rather that stick around to defend your faith. Many others on this list--most notably RWC, Pom, and Larsguy--have willingly submitted to far more rigorous questioning of their beliefs than you have without folding, and they are still willing to stand and fight. I suspect they know the Bible better than you do. Have you not taken to heart the teaching in 1 Peter, aChristian, to be willing always to explain the reason for your beliefs to any man who asks you?

    be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Question to aChristian in an earlier post:

    8. More importantly, please also tell us how God could have expected any of the sinners to know about the chance for redemption and the escape opportunity the ark presented.
    aChristian answered:

    Because, as I said, and as the Bible tells us, Noah served as "a preacher of righteousness" to the people of his land before the flood. And, as I have also already said, and as others here have had no problem in understanding me to say, the message "preachers of righteousness" have always preached is, "Repent and be saved." So Noah must have preached that message to the people of his land before the flood.
    Then, how do you explain Matthew telling us that these people had no idea the flood was coming?

    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:36-39)
    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Let me explain why I think aChristian's theory about the ark is so silly.

    First, his argument is based on several layers of speculation. To counter the skeptics' claim that evidence shows that the highest mountains on earth could not have been under twenty feet of water, aChristian argues that the flood was local, not global.

    As evidence of this he offers Peter's claim that Noah preached righteousness, and assumes that this preaching must have been done to others in what aChristian calls the "land of Noah, " rather than to those who came after the flood.

    He furthermore assumes that the message Noah preached to the inhabitants of the "land of Noah" must have included information about the coming flood and the saving ark waiting for them, if only they repented.

    aChristian assumes that the reason the Bible doesn't tell us that God really did hope that hordes of repentant sinners would flock to the ark is that there were two tellers of the flood story, and they must not have included all of the relevant details of the story. aChristian admits that the Genesis writers were God inspired, and that the Genesis story is the Word of God, but aChristian evidently believes that his god didn't inspire his writers sufficiently well that they would not forget to tell the world about God's desire to save not just Noah and his family, but perhaps all of the people in aChristian's "land of Noah."

    aChristian believes the Bible can be the inspired Word of God, even though this extremely important information about God's attitude toward the people in the "land of Noah" is left out of the Word of God. Actually, aChristian doesn't believe this information was important.

    Does this missing information not show that God really did want to all those people to be saved, that he really didn't want to destroy them, as the Bible says? How could it not be important? Anyway, back to the story.

    Now that aChristian has Noah preaching righteousness to the people in the "land of Noah," he evidently assumes that Noah told them about the coming flood and the ark which would save them. Noah had to have told them about the coming flood and the ark which would survive the flood--in aChristian's mind, of course--because otherwise God could have had no expectation that any of these people would know about the ark and come to the ark which God made spacious enough to accommodate all the people in the "land of Noah."

    aChristian thinks that all of this shows that the huge space in the ark was not meant for two of every kind of animal on the face of the globe, as everyone else since Old Testament times has believed--except aChristian. No, indeed, it was clearly meant for the hordes of people from the "land of Noah."

    Thus, aChristian concludes that since only a small amount of space was set aside for the few animals from the "land of Noah," this proves that the flood was local, not global, and there is no problem with the waters covering Mount Everest. Once again, the Bible is proved to be the perfect word of a god.

    However, aChristian overlooks Matthew, where the author makes it clear that these people had not the slightest inkling that the flood was coming and that there was an ark waiting (Matthew 24:26-39). Thus, his assumption that Noah told the people about the ark is refuted by Matthew.

    But, that is not the worst of his crimes against Christianity. By constructing such a preposterously convoluted scenario under which he can prevent water from being over Mt. Everest, aChristian makes apologists everywhere look silly.

    Why couldn't aChristian keep his argument simple? Why didn't he just say that the large space in the ark was meant to provide comfortable living space, and a generous storage area for food, for each of the few hundred or so animal types in the "land of Noah"? That way, aChristian could argue the large ark was consistent with a local flood, and still maintain his dignity.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Faithful2Jah
    Faithful2Jah

    Joe: I know you do not like others here answering questions you ask AC. But just in case you are really answering questions to find answers, and not just answering them to ridicule anything any Christian says, and just in case AC meant it when he said he did not intend to argue this asubject matter with you anymore, I'll take a stab at this one. You quoted the words "They knew nothing about what would happen," from the NIV. The NAS says "They did not understand." The KJV says more simply, "They knew not." I just checked my Interlinear Translation and I see the Greek simply says, "They did not know." So we have to ask ourselves, "What was Jesus saying they did 'not understand' and what was he saying they did 'not know'?" I think the context of his statement which you quoted answers this question. Verses 36 and 37 say, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." In other words, just as the people did not know when God's judgement would begin "in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of man."

    Now so far as why some Christians may not want to debate with some people endlessly. You say that the Bible tells us to always make a defense for our faith to anyone. That is true. But it does not say that we must do so endlessly. In fact it tells us in several places just the opposite. Jesus said, as I recall, that when someone rejects our message, we should shake the dust off our feet and move on. Also if you were once a Christian and now totally reject Christ and try to turn others against him, some may view you as a true "apostate", the kind the Bible says we should not even say a greeting to.

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