Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel 140 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO
    It seems those here whose position is, in effect, "The Bible definitely teaches a global flood so the Bible is dumb," have been reduced to doing nothing more than making personal attacks. ("braindead", "nuttier than a fruitcake", "deluded", "living in lah lah land", etc.) That being the case, I hereby declare this debate to be officially over and declare those who believe that Genesis may be describing a large local Mesopotamian flood, to be its winners.

    Faithful2Jah, Waiting, aChristian, Amazing, RWC, Gumby, and Stocwach <----------------- Taking their bows and graciously accepting their JWD Gold Medals for Excellence in the Debating Arts.

    He's dreamin'[8>]

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    The Myth of Noah's Flood

    (Excerpted from the article at http://members.aol.com/JAlw/flood_myth.html by Joseph F. Alward)

    In this article I present evidence that suggests that the story in Genesis about the apocalyptic flood was probably plagiarized from a mythologized Mesopotamian flood that predated the writing of Genesis by more than a thousand years.

    Many of the most incisive comments and points raised in this article were copied from Dennis McKinsey's articles in Biblical Errancy at http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html

    Flood Legends

    From Compton's Encyclopedia Online v2.0 © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc.

    "In the traditions of most ancient civilizations there can be found a legend concerning a flood of such enormous proportions that it is believed to have covered the whole Earth. Such was the destructive force of this flood that few land animals and plants survived it. For readers in Western society the most famous version is the story of Noah and the Ark as recounted in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. Although it may be the best known, the account of Noah's adventure is neither the only nor the oldest such legend.

    "Legends of a flood can be found in the folklore of such diverse places as the Middle East, India, China, Australia, southern Asia, the islands of the Pacific, Europe, and the Americas. But the best-known flood legend--that on which the story of Noah is based--had its origins among the peoples of ancient Mesopotamia in the Tigris-Euphrates river valley.

    The Real Mesopotamian Flood

    "The Babylonian plain is very fertile. The land was built up of mud and clay deposited by two great rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates. These twin rivers come down from mountains in the north, cut southeastward through hilly grasslands, and finally cross the plain they created to reach the Persian Gulf. The Greeks named the land between them Mesopotamia, 'land between the rivers.' Today it is called Iraq. Tradition says the Garden of Eden was here.

    "Excavations in Mesopotamia have led archaeologists and other scientists to conclude that a number of serious floods occurred there between 4000 and 2000 BC. It is possible that one of these floods was so destructive that it made a lasting impression on the population and became a subject for the ancient literature of the period.

    The Flood Grows into Myth

    "In its fully developed mythical form, the Mesopotamian flood appeared in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the first literary masterpieces, which relates the adventures of a hero-king of Sumer. The earliest versions of the epic derive from the first part of the 2nd millennium BC.

    The story of the flood is told to Gilgamesh by Utnapishtim, the counterpart of Noah in the story. Advised by the god Ea that his city is to be destroyed by flood, Utnapishtim is told to build a ship for his family, servants, and animals. After a seven-day flood, the vessel comes to rest on a mountaintop. The wrath of the gods has been appeased, and Utnapishtim and his wife are granted immortality.

    Hebrews Make the Flood Apocalyptic

    "About two thousand years after the Mesopotamian flood which led to the writing of The Epic of Gilgamesh, the story was probably brought to Canaan, the land where the Israelites settled, from Mesopotamia by the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The tale was reshaped around the eighth or ninth century BC by Hebrew writers into a narrative about God and his purposes for mankind. In this version it is the whole Earth that is to be flooded. Only Noah, his family, and the animals he collects are to be saved. The flooding lasts 40 days, and afterward Noah's Ark settles on top of a mountain." [1]

    [1] Compton's Encyclopedia Online v2.0 © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • RWC
    RWC

    Joseph, This is an interesting article. however if you read it close it fails to say two things. One, when the story of Babylon first originated and two, how it made its way to Canaan. The article states that the first part of the epic derives from the second millienium B.C. It doesn't say when it ws written down.If you have any additional information on this I would like to see it.

    It is known that the Noah account was an oral tradition of the Hebrew nation long before it was written, so how do we know who copied from who?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Gweedo,

    I'm writing this just to set the record straight. I realize what I here say will most likely not be accepted by you. But just in case anyone else here may be interested in reading what I consider to be biblical answers to your questions I am going to respond to them briefly.

    I wrote that "the apostle Peter said that the waters of the flood were intended to symbolize Christian baptism." And that, "God could have simply told Noah and his family to leave the area. But in order to symbolize how people would be saved in the future, God saved Noah and his family as they passed through water, not as they ran from water. (1 Pet. 3:20,21)"

    You asked: Just another point...there is no point taking the animals is there either...like birds huh. Unless he was intending to symbolize the time when he would baptize birds too...maybe?

    I believe God had Noah take animals, including birds, onto the ark for a couple of reasons. First of all, Noah and his family would have needed some animals and birds immediately after the flood, to serve as food, as sacrifices to God and as beasts of burden. This, of course, does not explain why God said that His purpose in having Noah take all the various kinds of animals in his land onto the ark was, "to keep their various kinds alive throughout the land." (Gen. 7:3) I believe the reason God had Noah do this was that He intended for Noah to symbolize Jesus Christ, whom the Bible calls "the sustainer of all things." (Heb. 1:3)

    God brought Judgment upon the land of Noah because the people of his land had become very corrupt. However, they were probably no more corrupt than the people in many other lands that then existed, or the people in many other lands at many other times in history. I believe God then judged the people of Noah's land in order to symbolize a similar but much larger Judgment that is yet to come. I believe God had Noah take all the different kinds of animals in his land onto the ark to also symbolize something larger. Again, that something larger is the fact that Jesus Christ is now, and will be then, "the sustainer of all things."

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    RWC asks,

    It is known that the Noah account was an oral tradition of the Hebrew nation long before it was written, so how do we know who copied from who?
    Well, let's look more closely at what the article says:

    Although it may be the best known, the account of Noah's adventure is neither the only nor the oldest such legend.

    Compton's Encyclopedia Online v2.0 © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc.

    This doesn't prove that the Noah's flood tradition was copied from the Babylonian one, of course. There may have been a pre-Babylonian flood myth based on the "Noah" described in Scripture, but where is the evidence of this? For now, the best evidence we have shows that there existed a flood story just like the one in the Bible which existed before the time (eighth or ninth century BCE) alleged for the Noachian flood.

    If you want to believe that there existed in oral tradition before the Babylonian story a story about God, Noah, and his ark, you will need to find it to support your hope. You'll also have to explain why you believe the flood described in the Bible didn't really happen at the time given in the Bible, but instead happened around the time the Babylonian myths were developing, a thousand years prior to that; otherwise, you will have to agree that the best evidence available points to the Noah's flood story as being mythical, and a copy of an earlier myth at that.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Gweedo,

    I should point out that what I just wrote regarding God's referring to "every kind" of animal is only my understanding. It is not the way many local flood advocates understand these words. Many believers in a local flood say that when God told Noah to take "every" kind of animal onto the ark, He was only referring to "every kind" of animal which Noah and his family would need immediately after the flood. God is believed by these Bible believers to have told Noah to take "seven" of "every kind of clean animal" and "seven" of "every kind of bird" because "clean" animals and "birds" were used by Noah and his family as sacrifices to God. They say God told Noah to take only "two of every kind of unclean animal," which they would need after the flood, because they would not then need nearly as many "unclean" animals. For though they would then use "unclean" animals in other ways, they would not then be sacrificing them to God. This may well be the correct understanding of Genesis 7:2,3.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    aChristian and Faithful believe that the Bible speaks of a local flood, a flood over what they call the “land of Noah,” not a global flood. There is much evidence against this, not the least of which is the fact that the Genesis author gives not the slightest hint that the flood was local.

    The only “evidence” they’ve been able to come up with is the statement by the writer in 2 Peter that “Noah was a preacher of righteousness,” and from this they jump to the conclusion that the writer was referring to preaching Noah did before the flood, rather than after, and they furthermore assume that if Noah preached before the flood then that preaching Noah did must have included admonitions to repent.

    Next, aChristian and Faithful assume that if it’s true that Noah wanted the sinners to repent, then it was God’s will that he do so. Then, they assume that if God wanted them to repent, it must have been so he could forgive them and remove the death penalty he levied against them, and invite them to come to the saving ark. Thus, these fellows layer one unsupported assumption over another, and another, and another, and another, to get from Peter's "preacher of righteousness" to a local flood. aChristian and Faithful think that God left it for them to unravel this puzzle and discover his true will.

    Now, if it’s true that God would have rescinded his death penalty, they argue, then it must have been true that God would have planned to have space for the sinners on the ark, just in case they did repent. That’s why God ordered Noah to build an extra-large ark, they think. They never explain why God, who inspired his Bible writers to record the Word of God, never had even one of his writers say a word about how he had really hoped to restart civilization with hordes of repentant sinners

    Besides the fact that the plainest and simplest reading of Genesis would tell any intelligent person that the writer wanted us to know that the flood was over the entire globe, and not local, what other evidence do we have that the flood was global?

    The other evidence is found in 2 Peter, in which the writer speaks of the “ancient world” not being spared by the flood:

    God …did not spare the ancient world [kosmos] when he brought the flood on its ungodly people (2 Peter 2:5)
    Who on this list seriously believes that “ancient world” the writer referred to was not really the “ancient world,” but actually the “ancient land of Noah”? Do you, aChristian? Do you, Faithful?

    Consider also the passage below, in which the “world of that time” was flooded and destroyed:

    But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world [kosmos]of that time was deluged and destroyed. (2 Peter 3:5)
    How is it possible that the writer above meant for his readers to believe that “the world of that time” was not the whole world, but instead was just the “land of Noah”? Wasn’t this writer inspired by God to write the Word of God? If so, then God would have guided the writing of this passage, and God is smart enough to know that intelligent readers would surely believe that the writer was not talking about a local flood. Knowing this, God would never have let the passage be written like this, would he? Thus, it must be true that if the writer was inspired by God, then the writer must have wanted us to know that the “world of that time” was the whole world.

    The word used in the passages above for “world” is kosmos, which appears 187 times in the New Testament. The word kosmos, is not used to represent a local area even once in those 187 occurrences. One can use the concordance in the Blue Letter Bible to confirm this: just enter the verse 2 Peter 2:5, and click on “C” for concordance, then look for the word “kosmos” (world), and click on the Strongs Number (it’s 2889) to see all 187 occurrences of the word.

    I’ll cite below just a few of the examples of the use of the word kosmos.

    the Christ, the Saviour of the world [kosmos]. (John 4:42)

    I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world [kosmos]. (Matthew 13:35)

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world [kosmos], and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:26)

    Now, if aChristian and Faithful want us to believe that the writer of 2 Peter 2:5 and 2 Peter 3:5 wanted us to think that “world” ( kosmos) really meant “land of Noah,” then why won’t they explain why he used a word which everywhere else in the Bible means the “whole world”?

    Can they find a single example among the 187 of the use of the word kosmos to mean a local area? If they cannot, why won't they admit that the kosmos the writer in 2 Peter 2:5 and 3:5 was referring to--the one which suffered the deluge--was the "whole world"?

    Why, also, won’t aChristian and Faithful explain to us why not one single one of the Bible writers were guided by God to explain to Bible readers that the flood was only over the “land of Noah,” and that God really did plan to fill the ark with repentant sinners?

    Finally, why won’t aChristian and Faithful explain why not one single Bible writer told us that the vast ark was mostly empty, because only local animals were on board, and all of the sinners God had hoped would repent, didn’t? How come God didn’t have at least one of his Bible writers tell us this--if that’s really what happened?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    aChristian writes,

    Many believers in a local flood say that when God told Noah to take "every" kind of animal onto the ark, He was only referring to "every kind" of animal which Noah and his family would need immediately after the flood.
    Then why didn’t God have his Genesis writer say so? Why wasn't the omniscient God smart enough to know that thousands of years of Bible readers would misinterpret the simple, plain-speaking words in Genesis? If these “believers” can imagine that crucial words were left out of the Bible verses, then where does one draw the line?

    God warned what would happen to those who seek to add to the words in the Bible:

    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. (Revelation 22:18)

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO

    AChristian

    I believe God had Noah take animals, including birds, onto the ark for a couple of reasons. First of all, Noah and his family would have needed some animals and birds immediately after the flood, to serve as food, as sacrifices to God and as beasts of burden. This, of course, does not explain why God said that His purpose in having Noah take all the various kinds of animals in his land onto the ark was, "to keep their various kinds alive throughout the land." (Gen. 7:3) I believe the reason God had Noah do this was that He intended for Noah to symbolize Jesus Christ, whom the Bible calls "the sustainer of all things." (Heb. 1:3)
    I think you just said it AC:

    This, of course, does not explain why God said that His purpose in having Noah take all the various kinds of animals in his land onto the ark was, "to keep their various kinds alive throughout the land." (Gen. 7:3)
    I think the bible is pretty clear:

    "to keep... various kinds[of animals] alive throughout the land." (Gen. 7:3) is why God told Noah to take animals onto the ARk

    There was no need for Noah to take animals onto the ark to preserve them alive throughout the entire land if a local flood happened.

    This is an extremely weak point in your argument. I cant get my head around it.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Gweedo (and Joseph - since you asked essentially the same question),

    As I mentioned, it is certainly possible that God did not use the word "every" in the Genesis flood account in the same way that we most often use it today.

    Any Hebrew Bible lexicon will verify this as a possibility. For they all tell us that the ancient Hebrew word which is translated as "every" here in the Genesis flood account, kol, was often used by the ancient Hebrew people, including the writer of Genesis, in a less than all encompassing manner.

    For instance, the actual Hebrew text of Gen. 24:10 tells us that when Abraham's servant Eliezer left him to find his son Isaac a wife Eliezer took with him "every [Hebrew = kol] good thing of his master." However, because "every" obviously does not really mean "every" in this verse, it is seldom translated that way. The NIV here translates the Hebrew word kol, and the rest of this verse, as "ALL KINDS of good things from his master." The NAS translates it as "A VARIETY of good things of his master's." If modern translators had used the same discretion when translating the Genesis flood account we might not be having this discussion.

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