Hassan's New Book: Chapter 2- What is Destructive Social Influence ?

by flipper 55 Replies latest jw friends

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  Xanthippe

  Flipper and Rip VanWinkle:

  Thanks for answering my question about the two versions of the Watchtower. When I left the org. twenty odd years ago there was only one version of the Watchtower every two weeks. The one we read was the identical one we took out in field service. I was absolutely amazed to read this.

  It hit me in the eye because it is classic cult behavior to only let the initiated know the full rules and regulations and lean on them to keep all these do'es and don'ts while keeping them secret from those showing an interest until they are emotionally committed.

  Ten minutes on the internet reading accounts of people who have got away from Scientology or the Moonies will tell you that. It just made me want to yell at my family and friends still in the JW's 'What does it take people? What does this cult have to do to you to make you realise?'

  Thanks for this thread, Flipper, it has made me wonder what else has changed that I just have no clue about and probably can't even imagine happening! I'll watch this space!
• 

  00DAD

  scotoma, posted a link to this blog:

  • Pseudoscientific Assessment and Misuse of the Myers-Briggs

  In it, Monica Pignotti, PhD, made this comment in reference to Hassan's interpretation of the Yeakley MBTI study:

  Converts to cults typically will remember their past in ways that are at odds with how people who knew the person well remember it, since their memories are typically colored by their conversion. For example, Hasssan himself has discussed how cult members are often indoctrinated to remember their pasts as much worse than it was or will remember themselves outside the group, before getting involved in a negative way. - Emphasis added

  While it would theoretically be a more accurate assessment to have administered the Myers-Briggs to cult members before their indoctrination and then compare those responses to another assessment while they are actually in the cult, that of course will never happen.

  Nevertheless, the fact that cult members remember themselves as being different prior to their cult indoctrination does prove the effects of the cult involvement on their personality even if it does not accurately reflect what those actual changes are.

  This is anecdotally confirmed over-and-over again by the observations of family and friends of cult members that knew them both before and after their conversion.

  00DAD
• 

  scotoma

  OODAD:

  All paper and pencil self-report tests are quite inaccurate because people are very poor judges of their own personalities.

  But the Myers-Briggs is extremely flawed in its construction.

  If you want to know the specific ways MBTI fails read this http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/Articles/develop/mbti.pdf

  You said "Nevertheless, the fact that cult members remember themselves as being different prior to their cult indoctrination does prove the effects of the cult involvement on their personality even if it does not accurately reflect what those actual changes are."

  That statment doesn't prove anything "if it does not accurately reflect what those actual changes are."

  One reason people join cults, go into therapy, read Self-Help books and change religions is because they are not happy with themselves and they want to change in some way. Alcoholics Annonymous also comes to mind as an example.

  People tend to introject the leaders (exemplars) in their organizations. Some people are more vulnerable to this process than others. These individuals sometimes need quite a bit of therapy just to gain an identity separate from a parent they feared or respected.

  Hassan is correct in referring to this as a "social influence" rather than brain-washing.

  Once again I don't see any difference between JW's and the crazy practices of almost all religions.

  Circumcision - belief that you must cut off the foreskin because God requires that. (Jews and Muslims)

  Dietary restriction - Don't eat pig.(Jews and Muslims) Don't eat meat. (Hindus)

  Smoking Marijuanna - Rastafarians

  Catechetical Indoctrination - Just about all religions

  Belief that you are dirty and in need of ceremonial cleansing. (Baptism)

  Eucharist - Eating Jesus

  Prohibition for preists to marry.

  All of this requires surrendering your reason to be accepted as a member in good standing.
• 

  scotoma

  Flipper:

  You said: " This reminds me of how the WT society has two versions of the WT magazine. One soft pedal version they place with people in the door to door service which has flowery information , yet a harder hitting WT which inflicts disciplinary requirements on active JW's who are expected to conform."

  You are aware that the "harder hitting" version is available to the public on the internet.
• 

  00DAD

  Scotoma: I don't see any difference between JW's and the crazy practices of almost all religions.

  No doubt there's plenty of craziness in many religious beliefs. But not all religions are as manipulative and high-control as JWs. Institutionalized Shunning is a practice only among a few contemporary religions. How can you fail to see that difference? I guess your JWN UserName explains that.

  Scotoma: You are aware that the "harder hitting" version is available to the public on the internet.

  What percentage of the public do you think actually d/l the WT Study Editions?
• 

  Farkel

  :What is Destructive Social Influence ?

  Liberalism.

  Farkel
• 

  flipper

  BREAKFAST of CHAMPIONS- I think you'll enjoy reading Hassan's book, lots of great ideas in there for assisting our JW relatives.

  ON THE WAY OUT- Good observation on your part about JW's and other cult members having an " illusion of control " in their lives when in actuality the " social influence " being exerted over them by the WT society and other powermongers is what's actually controlling their thinking. That and the ever changing doctrinal views. One reason it's so difficult for JW's to REALIZE they are being controlled and that they are NOT in control of their own destiny. And like you stated JW's do have a battle going on within themselves- especially liberal JW's who will cross over the lines of demarcation set by the WT society leaders - and decide to do their own thing spiting WT society orders. Hopefully JW's like that may exit the cult in time.

  SCOTOMA- In regards to me being aware that the public has access to the WT study verion of the WT magazine, yes, I know that. But the public isn't CONTROLLED by the WT society to sit and read and comment on every paragraph in the WT studies like rank & file JW's are- thus the public isn't in as much danger of being controlled or influenced by the WT study version of the magazine as are baptized, meeting attending Witnesses.

  As regards my statement that I " agree to disagree " you can dissect it anyway you desire . It seems you are pretty swift on the uptake when you stated " it is a way to end discussion not further it ". That is my general intention regarding communication which dwells on negative debate. My purpose of the thread is to assist people in a positive way to see Hassan's methods , not splitting hairs over word usage . Peace out, mr. Flipper
• 

  flipper

  XANTHIPPE- I understand how you feel. I too was really surprised when the WT society started printing two versions of the Watchtower magazine I think about 5 to 8 years ago. Something like that. Also they eliminated the book studies from being in anybody's home and combine it now with the service meeting and ministry school I believe. ( I haven't attended in over 9 years so I'm going on what I read here. ) Also they've once again changed the view of what constitutes a " generation " now. It's not the generation that saw 1914 that will survive Armageddon, it's the generation that overlaps the 1914 generation , thus the NEXT generation that will survive Armageddon- allegedly. Indeed, a lot has changed in over 20 years my friend. The Witnesses are becoming even more cultish and controlling with WT leaders dominating members lives. Like yourself- I just want to scream to my relatives " get out " ! - But it would only deepen their stand in the cult. There are more subtle ways to assist them, one reason I'm making these threads on Hassan's methods so we can help our JW relatives escape in time ! Glad to have you here Xanthippe, hope your JW relatives escape .

  00DAD- Exactly. All cult members remember what it was like before they were in the cult. Even born-ins like myself remember fun times I had as a boy going up to my non-Witness grandparents cabin in the mountains visiting and fishing with my grandfather , watching him cook smoked salmon on the BBQ grill while I was 6 years old. I remember that for 2 weeks I didn't have to attend ANY JW meetings and the peace of being away from the kingdom hall was utter bliss. So, yes indeed, the good authentic memories we develop outside cult mind control stay with us. I'm almost 53 and I remember good times with my grandparents vividly ! It can triumph over negative cult memory's !

  FARKEL- Yeah, I guess liberalism CAN be a destructive social influence, but in my opinion staunch conservatism can also be destructive. There needs to be a balance between the two
• 

  sizemik

  Once again I don't see any difference between JW's and the crazy practices of almost all religions. . . . scotoma

  You make a very broad generalisation, and one that is quite clearly wrong anyway. The only commonality you have established is that almost all religions have "crazy practices". Why stop at religion? . . . there are plenty of non-religious institutions that also have "crazy practices" which could easily share the same commonality.

  There seems little doubt that there are very profound differences between the practices and methods of various religions, that results in equally varied levels of "social influence", which in turn has equally varied levels of destructive outcomes.

  General commonalities may well exist . . . but that is not the same as "no difference"

  I'm surprised you're pushing this line.
• 

  scotoma

  Flipper:

  Hassan is actually another cult leader. And you are in his cult. He uses questionable methods. Quotes questionable research for support. He seldom responds to criticism. He charges exhorbitant fees. I can enlarge and shape the definition of "cult" in any direction I choose. That's what you are doing. At the very least he is a generator of pseudoscience and you are a distributor.

  I just want to warn people here that Hassan is f.o.s.