Fantastic quote on jwfacts Sparlock article

by cedars 115 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Cedars, don't you know that the vast majority of doctors have no ability to communicate with other people? Think of the main character of House. Maybe it's just an American doctor thing as that's my only experience, but 99.9% of all doctors I have ever come across are complete and total assholes. That's because they can and so they are, but they don't really see it. There was a recent study that provided evidence that the more intelligent one is the more personal bias they will have. Smart people have incredible misunderstandings about the world around them. KS is a case and point. In a way it's good to be dumb!

    -Sab

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    00DAD said:

    The subject of a "conscience decision" is interesting. When I was a young JW an elder in my congregation explained the difference between a WEAK conscience and a STRONG conscience this way:

    • STRONG CONSCIENCE: you make your own decisions as to how you apply Bible principles in your life
    • WEAK CONSCIENCE: you are overly concerned about and/or easily stumbled by the decisions other Christians make as to how they apply Bible principles in their life

    Yup, which pretty much leads us full-circle:

    a good JW HAS ALWAYS been advised to consider the effect their decision on even "conscience matters" may have on those who ARE weaker in their consciences (as defined above). Hardly a news flash there, since "I AM my brother's keeper" is as old as dirt. And that's exactly the bit that was covered in the 1994 Awake! quote that was omitted, where 1 Cor 10:32 advises that Xians "don't cause other Xians to stumble". Better safe than sorry has ALWAYS been the principle.

    And SURE, no Spit, there's been WT policy changes (eg the education bit): CoC lists TONS of policy changes analyzed from Ray Franz's unique perspective. But the specific charge in THIS thread is that Sparlock is an example of a policy change on magic toys, when it's not, compared to the 1994 1994 Awake.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Cedars, I'm not sure why you're pursuing KS so fervently. Your painstaking appeal for him to explain his motivation - which as you say is off topic - is perhaps more audacious than intended. Who ulitmately knows what each of our legitimate motivations are? Most humans can produce an array of reasons for what they do or don't do - and it's anyone's guess as to what are legitimate motivations.

    Regardless of KS's - or anyone else's - inner promptings and motivations, could this not be an opportunity for you to "simply" accept that you and he disagree on some fundamentals and leave it at that? it might reflect a cliched outcome, but I'd say here is a perfect opportunity to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree".

    I'm not unsympathetic to your feeling "got at" by his responses; equally, though, I suspect he too must feel "got at" - or exercised enough - by his evident need to keep replying to your replies. I don't think there will be a meeting of the minds - and sometimes that's just the way it goes.

    None of this detracts from what I consider valid points raised by both "sides". It just shows how the same scenario and/or "set up" can elicit very different interpretations and conclusions - a very human outcome (unless of course there is a governing body to rule on the matter

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Aside from the personalities - Cedars is right and Solomon is wrong on the change in tone from the article to the video.

    The video is plainly more restrictive than the language in the article.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Thanks steve2 - but I don't think those are unreasonable questions. After all, KS knows most of OUR backgrounds and, in my case, uses these as a basis for criticism. In any case, KS is under no compulsion to answer. The questions merely outline why people like me struggle to take him seriously. Whether he answers them or not is entirely his choice. I won't lose any sleep either way, you can be assured of that.

    Cedars

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    As an unbaptised child of Watchtower zealots with 70 years preaching under their belts ....

    If you indulge in 'anti-Watchtower activism', you have to be right on the money with every criticism, or your JW will use every mistake to trash your character. You have to do your groundwork. Never spout off anything to a JW that you don't already know their answer for.

    The quote in the OP did not include the next sentence, and the next sentence is relevent to the JW reader, so if you pulled this on a JW and they looked it up, you would have to back off and apologise for your mistake because if you didn't, they would use it as a reason to never trust you again.

    ... but of course, what would I know? I'm just a member of the Unwashed Class.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Black Sheep - I appreciate your sentiments, and I agree that accuracy is important. However, the next sentence you mention is actually the next paragraph. I don't feel there is anything for either myself or Paul Grundy to "apologize" for in quoting an entire paragraph that pertains to the issue of magic toys. Thinking JWs can decide for themselves whether the material was quoted in context, or whether the following paragraph (or paragraphs) substantially alter the tone of the quote in the context of the argument being made.

    Cedars

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Blacksheep, perhaps you can be so kind as to share the relevant parts that were omitted in the context of the original article? Of course, that sentence or paragraph (or whatever Cedars demand that it be referred to as) is the relevant bit. I looked earlier, but the online Awakes only go back to 2000.

    Cedars, it is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty to omit relevant facts to support a straw-man argument of your own creation. THAT is the very definition of straw-manning: misrepresenting your opponents position to make it easier to attack. You can rationalize it away all you want, but you've done it before and you're doing it now.... You're fibbing again, Arnold.

    You dont have to agree or disagree with that, because the principles of fair argumentation are not open for debate.

    As stated, omitting relevant pertinent information to the topic under discussion only undermines your credibility, and anyone who gets into a discussion with a JW on this point is only going to have egg on their face when the JW needs to explain to them how someone (Cedars) "forgot" to point out the rest of the article which drastically effects the claim.

    Look, some of us here actually have JWs family members still in: do you really want to be responsible for causing these family members to be locked deeper into the jaws of the WTBTS, after the person who knows TTATT looks like a fool by relying on your bad information, over-stating a case which isn't even supported by facts? JWs get lied to routinely: the last thing they need is to be lied to about TTATT.

    Btw, Grundy didn't make as broad or hyperbolic a claim as you did. What we have is a classic "propagation of errors", where errors are retained, but become more damaging as others rely on the prior without exercising independent fact-checking. You upped the ante by claiming it was a hard-lining of JW policy, when its much like the ASL video: sometimes seeing the same message delivered in a different way causes the content to seem to be different when it's really not.

  • cedars
    cedars

    For a moment there I got excited, thinking KS was going to answer my question! Alas, it wasn't to be. Not to worry. I'm sure he has his reasons.

    Re. the missing paragraph, or any other subsequent paragraphs in the article, I stand by what I said earlier. Also, if you're going to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty, you may as well accuse Paul as well - because it's his quote too. I personally think it's ridiculous and petty, but that's just me.

    Cedars

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    However, the next sentence you mention is actually the next paragraph

    Sentence shmentence, it is still the very next words in the article and a JW will not let that excuse let you off the hook.

    Thinking JWs can decide...

    The only time they do think is when you've made a mistake. If you even accidentally involve yourself in what seems to them to be scholastic dishonesty then you are dishonest in their eyes.

    It isn't what you think that is important to them...

    Who wants to waste their time with a JW arguing over whether, or not, a quotation you gave them should have included the next paragraph/sentence/chapter? If you want to make your time count, it should be the other way around.

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