by Bangalore 144 Replies latest jw friends
Maybe someone could heal someone in front of me....THAT woud be a good witness!
(as long as I knew the person and knew for a fact they were sick before this random person walked up to them on the street and healed them)
Gotta admit...I'd be impressed.
Recovery:
Jesus told his disciples to search out who is deserving in any city/village they enter. The entire city would be judged based on their response to Jesus disciples. The entire city cannot be judged if everyone in the city has not at least been given a chance to hear the message.
Interesting concept. Are you aware of the Watchtower’s teaching regarding countries where they have not made significant penetration with their preaching work? According to the WT of 10/15/1953,
“***w5310/15p.639QuestionsFromReaders***
The watchman class will faithfully perform the work to the extent Jehovah considers necessary, and by Armageddon all will come under individual or family or community responsibility before God.
Also see the QFR in w52 6/1 p. 350. The teaching is that individuals are responsible before God because of their participation in a community. Most people in China, for example, have never been reached with the JW message. Nonetheless, they will be destroyed by God at Armageddon because of their support of their ungodly leaders and because of their own sinful rebellion against the God who is evident in creation. It is not necessary that every individual hear the message, only that it be proclaimed in the community. So, according to WT teaching, your assertion is false.
No, if you want the entire city to hear your message you will not only have to go to public places, you will also have to go to each person's individual home. This is exactly what the disciples did. That is why it is virtually translated as "from house to house" and not "in private homes of interested people", because it is not logical or sensical.
You are simply asserting this without evidence. As I and others have pointed out, the Greek term does not need to mean “from house to house” in the sense that JWs understand the phrase (more about that in a minute). Also, you are looking at this text through 21 st century eyes. Word about new things spread much more quickly and thoroughly in ancient cities (which, as I’ve also pointed out, were much smaller than modern cities). In old west towns in the USA, for example, everyone heard about it and came out when the revival preacher or snake-oil salesman came to town. He didn’t need to go from door to door to contact nearly everyone; all he had to do was set up in a public place and wait for word to get around. The same was almost certainly true in the time of Jesus and the apostles. People weren’t tied up watching TV, surfing the net, playing video games, etc. Most didn’t even have books to read. When something new arrived in town, everybody was curious and wanted to check it out. To say that the disciples HAD to go from house to house is simply imposing your organization’s requirements into the text where they are not found.
Jesus is training his disciples in the preaching work so that they continue it after he is long gone. Of course, Jesus could do everything better himself but he is sending forth his disciples to preach so that they can acquire skill and in the future take the lead in the disciple making work. Surely, you aren't going to try to make the case that it wasn't necessary for the disciples to preach from door to door simply because Jesus had crowds follow after him?
No question that Jesus was training His disciples to do the work of evangelism after His return to heaven, but I don’t see how that explains why crowds followed Him everywhere He went. Clearly, people had heard about His teaching because He went to public places to teach. The Bible never once speaks of Jesus going from door to door to spread His message – He is always teaching and preaching in public places. Nonetheless, He had crowds clamoring to hear what He said. You are presuming that the disciples did a door to door preaching work in connection with Jesus’ ministry, but no clear delineation of it is found in the text, only a few verses that use the phrase “from house to house,” onto which you are projecting the Watchtower’s interpretation of the phrase. More about that below.
Bible translators of all credentials disagree with you. If the early Christians method of preaching was ambiguous/unclear, it would not be so easily translated as "from house to house". This is not an issue of serious lexical debate, because it is very obvious to those who use their thinking caps and those who are not attempting to discredit the house to house preaching work of JW's.
The problem is that you are looking at the phrase “from house to house” through Watchtower-colored glasses, as others here have already pointed out. “From house to house” does not imply a sequential door-to-door campaign of calling at the homes of uninterested strangers, as the WTS teaches. The same phrase in Greek is translated elsewhere (such as Acts 2:46) –even in the New World Translation - as “in private homes.” Since the NWT claims to translate Greek phrases consistently throughout, why is Acts 2:46, for example, not rendered as, “And day after day they were in constant attendance at the temple with one accord, and they took their meals from house to house and partook of food with great rejoicing and sincerity of heart”? The answer, obviously, is that such a rendering would be absurd. The disciples did not walk down the street, knocking sequentially on each door, eating their meals in every house. The phrase obviously means “in private homes,” as the NWT has correctly translated it. And if it means “in private homes” at this instance, there is no contextual reason why it cannot be rendered in exactly the same way at Acts 5:42 and 20:20 – except that to do so would eliminate the key proof texts that JWs use for their door-to-door work. The Greek phrase that is rendered “from house to house” does not refer to door-to-door canvassing.
On his first trip on his second missionary tour, what does Paul find? Does he come to Ephesus and find a thriving, organized congregation of Ephesians?
You are engaging in false dichotomy. I didn’t say that Paul came to Ephesus and found a “thriving, organized congregation of Ephesians,” but neither did he come to Ephesus and find no Christian presence whatsoever. As the Insight book correctly points out, Priscilla, Aquila and Apollos were already there (Acts 18:24-26). Presumably, they were not functioning in a vacuum. There were almost certainly other Christians there, though there were also some who misunderstood the faith and had only been baptized with John’s baptism. Paul did much to grow and strengthen the church there, but he didn’t start from zero.
The account does not mention Aquila and Priscilla or Apollos. We do not have conclusive proof that they are still there. So where is the proof that there were Christians in Ephesus before his second arrival?
I assume, then, that you believe that Insight on the Scriptures is in error on this point? Let me understand your contention: Christians were present in Ephesus at some time before Paul’s second visit (at least in the persons of Aquila, Pricilla and Apollos, and likely others as well), but you are saying that all Chriatians had left the city by the time of Paul’s second visit so that Paul was walking into a city that was 100% devoid of Christian presence? That’s a pretty big stretch, and it seems to me that the burden of proof would fall to you to show that all Christians had left the city. But, again, this is the sort of position you need to take in order to support the Watchtower’s pet doctrine.
Surely, all the inhabitants of Asia didn't hear the word of the Lord at the synagogue (in Ephesus) and the school auditorium (in Tyrannus).
Except for the fact that that is exactly what it says in Acts 19:10.
The district of Asia was far more encompassing than just a school auditorium in Tyrannus and a synagogue in Ephesus. But it would have been possible for Paul to reach all the residents of the district of Asia if he preached from house to house and not just in a school auditorium in one city.
I suppose it would have. He might also have done so with a good direct mailing campaign or if he hired an airplane and used skywriting to place his message above the city. However, the Bible does not record either of these methods, nor does it say that he engaged in sequential door-knocking. It DOES say that “he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus. This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks” (Acts 19:8-10). Again, it is only because of your support of Watchtower dogma that you feel the need to insert other concepts into these verses. In your eagerness to insist on adding the door-to-door work to Scripture, you are actually denying the plain statements that the Bible makes – not an unusual practice for JWs, I’m sorry to say.
Another point I would make is that the word “all” as used in the New Testament does not necessarily mean every single person. For example, in Luke 8:37, we read, “Then all the people of the surrounding country of the Gerasenes asked him to depart from them, for they were seized with great fear. So he got into the boat and returned.” Are we to assume that every last person among the Gerasenes approached Jesus personally and asked Him to leave, or does it make more sense to assume that the phrase means there was a consensus? So when Acts says that “all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord,” it could mean that the message had thoroughly penetrated the area, not necessarily that every last individual had received a personal message from someone calling at his home. Remember also, that Ephesus was a port city and a center of commerce, so messages heard there tended to be carried far and wide, especially if some of those hearing the message while visiting the city had actually become believers.
The primary method of making new disciples is preaching from house to house. This is what most JW's spend their time doing. Inviting people to the Memorial is also primarily done by house to house. This is the primary method for memorial invitations globally. You cannot take a method (such as informal witnessing) substantially LESS advocated/employed and use it for your case. We are talking about what most of the time the preaching hours you quote are spent on. And most of them are spent in the door to door ministry. The door to door work has its benefits, as is shown by the increase in Memorial attendance and converting of JW's in the past 50 years. There are other methods used, but they are so much lower when compared with the house to house work, they are not comparable/extremely significant.
Again, this is mere assertion on your part, presented without evidence. Indeed, no evidence is available, since, as far as I know, nobody is keeping statistics on percentages of those baptized who were initially contacted by various means. I was speaking from my own experience, and I have no hesitation in saying that, after 30 years as a JW, the vast majority of Witnesses whom I knew were NOT contacted through the door-to-door work, but were either approached through other methods, or else had been raised in the organization. Even if we minimize the number brought in through “informal” witnessing, certainly we must agree that a large number of baptisms are of young people who were raised as JWs. That makes even larger the number of hours that must be spent in ministry to achieve even one baptism of someone who was originally contacted in the door-to-door work.
As far as Memorial invitations being distributed from house to house, I can’t recall a single time in 30 years as a JW when someone attended the Memorial simply because someone randomly left an invitation at his or her home, having no prior interest in JWs. Not one. In fact, as I recall, we were not encouraged to distribute Memorial invitations at every door, but only to our studies, return visits, or where particular interest was shown. You must know as well as I do that the reason for the huge Memorial attendance is that everyone comes, including the inactive, the unbelieving mates, Bible studies, interested persons and even disfellowshipped persons – in many cases people who never darken the door of a Kingdom Hall any other time during the year, but who nonetheless have some sort of connection to the organization prior to attending. I hardly think you can truthfully attribute high Memorial attendance to invitations being distributed from door to door.
Well, downsizing and consolidation are economical methods to save funds, and better use them on things that take priority. If one branch can supply literature to every region that received literature from 5 other branch facilities, it is entirely reasonable and logical to consolidate them into one as doing such would save considerable funds. Over 10,000 congregations were opened in the last year, there are more Kingdom Halls that need to be built than they can keep up with and yet you are arguing that our figures are unreliable?
Maybe, maybe not. Let’s just say I’m skeptical. While you say that many new congregations are being opened, why is it that I am so often reading about congregations being consolidated and Kingdom Halls sold off? There is a rather famous lawsuit going on in California in which a congregation did not want to turn its KH over to the organization to be sold, in just such a situation – the organization demanded that two congregations be combined and one of the Kingdom Halls sold (and, of course, the proceeds of the sale turned over to the WTS). Why is this going on, if the organization is growing so dramatically? It appears to me that the only areas in which the JWs are truly growing are third world countries, where the Internet is not widely available and the facts about the history and teachings of the JW organization are not readily found. It just seems inconsistent in the other areas that congregations are closing up as the organization allegedly grows.
I've lived across the street from a Mormon Church for over a year and they've never been here.
Dubs show up every few weeks and I don't know where they meet.
I think people have to get a handle on whether they're pagans from the Creator Yahwhe's perspective. If you consider the three great worldly religions, a person obviously could not claim to be a Christian Muslim. And they couldn't claim to be a Christian Jew since they don't obey Torah. And they certainly couldn't claim to be a Christian Catholic or Christian Protestant including jw's and Mormons who practice SUNday God worship and profane the Sabbath and the Divine Names.
SEE 1 Corinthians 10
Sorry, what did you say, I wasn't listening. Oh, you DO want me to listen to you and do what you say.
Wow...I found that INCREDIBLY boring to read....
It was just what I needed to go to sleep...thanks tec....another fine witness keep up the good work.
What would be acceptable to me? What does it matter? I'm not the christian...ask Jesus.
Yeah, lol... exactly what i was saying. This is a case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'.
People are boring; people don't witness, people bother you with their God/Christ talk, oh... but people don't witness...
As I said, you cannot have it both ways... criticize people FOR witnessing, and in the same breath criticize people for NOT witnessing.
And I had to ask what is acceptable to you, because you do not acknowledge that people bear witness to Christ.
If that were true, and you do not hear HIM, then you would never even have heard ABOUT Him.
But you have.
You have also seen and heard about people who give to the poor and set up homeless shelters/soup kitchens/charities... in the name of Christ. That is also a witness to Him. Sometimes that is a better witness.
And before you or someone else brings it up: Some people remember or even know to give BECAUSE of His teachings on the matter. You might think that makes them 'less good' than someone who gives without having been told that they should, but so what if it does? Most people who profess Christ will openly admit that they are NOT good, and that He DOES teach them to do more for their fellow man.
A person comes to me, says they hear the voice of their lord
You don't have to believe on the basis of that person's word... but they have still bore witness to Christ.
, and then tells me the thing I can actually investigate for myself is written by liars,
A) You guys have exaggerated this, making it seem as though I have turned it into some conspiracy of liars, when I have never said such a thing. (that in fact is a perfect example of it... taking someone's words, reading more or less into them, and then writing it out as if it is a fact; when in reality it is a misrepresentation)
B) You can test against the Christ - you can read about Him in the bible, but that is limited. You can also test against love and mercy (two things he stressed, and various witnesses bore testimony to that). You can also ask Him, in spirit, for ears to hear and eyes to see, and for understanding to be granted to you.
but the thing they have to say about their voice (which I cannot investigate) is the truth. Nuh uh.
Don't have to take my word for anything; you should look for yourself (in various ways as mentioned above)
We are, however, getting sidetracked from the point... which is that people have and DO bear witness to Christ. That you do not accept that witness is another thing entirely.
Peace,
tammy
If I have to hear a voice to get the full story, I will definitely pass. I don't think that is healthy. It is also unreliable. Now if your lord wants to hold me responsible from shying away from something that often means mental illness, then it is not very loving at all. Most people would not welcome hearing a voice. Why choose a symptom of mental illness to be the 'sign' or 'communication'? Very unloving.
'You have to know ME and not the scriptures, and I will communicate with you in a way that most people see as mental illness and quite often IS mental illness!"
Crazy. So yes, if that is your witness, I reject it wholeheartedly and with great relief. I don't want to sit around hearing voices, but I know some embrace it.
If I have to hear a voice to get the full story, I will definitely pass.
It is no different with anyone else is it? You might hear about someone from others... but to actually KNOW them, you have to go TO them.
If you don't want to (or don't know how to) do that, then you should at the least reserve judgment.
I don't think that is healthy. It is also unreliable. Now if your lord wants to hold me responsible from shying away from something that often means mental illness, then it is not very loving at all.
IS that honestly why you shy away from Christ? Or is that why you shy away from people professing to hear him?
Most people would not welcome hearing a voice. Why choose a symptom of mental illness to be the 'sign' or 'communication'? Very unloving.
Speaking TO someone is simply communication. Who says He means it to be a sign? A sign is for someone who does not have faith to begin with. They need a sign to believe. One does not get to hear... as a sign to them that Christ and God are real. One has faith BEFORE one hears.
Communication is not unloving.
That some mental illness manifest in hearing voices is simply one more reason to test the inspired expression. Test what you hear; test what someone else claims to hear. Test the message... rather than attempt to test the person.
So yes, if that is your witness, I reject it wholeheartedly and with great relief. I don't want to sit around hearing voices, but I know some embrace it.
Some embrace Christ, yes.
You, however, can reject whatever you want to reject. But none of that is why I came on this thread to begin with. Like I said, that is an entirely different matter.
I came on the thread because you and Still criticized the lack of witnessing by christians... while at the same time you criticizing the amount of it on other threads. You think christians should witness more... you think they should get out of your face... how can you have it both ways, other than that you simply wish to judge and find fault, no matter what?
Peace,
tammy
you cannot have it both ways
Yes I can...and christ does not exist....and I did give you an idea of what would make me interested above... EVIDENCE...not just 'this is what a voice in my head said'. At the end of the day....that means NOTHING. And is a witness to NOTHING.
But God doesn't like to play the EVIDENCE card does he? THAT would be too simple. He prefers whispering to people and getting them to come on interenet forums to tell other people to listen out for whispers. Only around 10% of the population actually hear voices in their heads, and most of them aren't even claiming to hear Jesus.
And New chapter....no she doesn't say liars....she says lying scribes.......I had this same differentiation with another ex member of this board who said I was lying all the time...but not a lier. So using that logic....the lying scribes are not liars....LOL
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Test the message. .. rather than attempt to test the person.
Still waiting to hear from Jesus..............what does that say about the message? And the person who gave the message?
how can you have it both ways, other than that you simply wish to judge and find fault, no matter what?
Must be a sign you're doing a good job then!....Jesus would be proud (if he was real that is)...he likes nothing better than to see his followers persecuted in his name.
(or maybe it was the lying scribes that said that....)
