That was awesome EoM! Some real 'meat' there!! Thanks!
SAFE WAY to awaken, VERY POWERFUL. Even called Bethel elder on it.
by EndofMysteries 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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EndofMysteries
tornapart - Thanks and no problem! :)
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Cold Steel
Fascinating eschatology.
In all my reading of the scriptures, I've never read anything that would lead me to the conclusion that there are two classes of resurrected beings, spirits and physical beings. In fact, all men will be resurrected according to the scriptures; and in the Lord's house there are many mansions, or degrees.
Since the Lord's resurrection, I see no reason why the First Resurrection isn't still continuing. But the vast majority of those resurrected will, I think, rise at the coming of Christ when he returns in the clouds of heaven to Jerusalem (which is his coming in glory) and brings the battle of Armageddon to a close.
The big question is why does it matter? The notion that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit is absurd. He went through great lengths to show his disciples that he wasn't a spirit ("for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have"). It's important to keep in mind that flesh and blood is not the same as flesh and bones. In the former, blood is the corrupting agent. When it is replaced by spirit, it has the best qualities of both spirit and physical. This is why Jesus was able to show his disciples the wounds in his hands, side and feet, and yet go through walls and ceilings. As a resurrected being, he is able to withhold his glory and appear as a man or, when he returns, will appear in all his glory which will destroy the wicked who aren't quickened. And according to John, the resurrection of the righteous will be like Jesus' resurrection. And that is all the righteous. There is no "great crowd" or "other sheep" by way of resurrections. Most scholars believe the "other sheep" are the gentiles, while others believe they are the "lost" tribes of Israel socked away somewhere. But none that I know of believe they're a separate resurrected class.
Finally, the notion that man having a spirit is not a pagan belief. All throughout the New Testament, the apostles liken the body as a "tabernacle" for the spirit and Peter wanted to "depart" and be with Christ, but to stay with the church was more needful for it.
In 1945 the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library were discovered. The Nag Hammadi writings were collections of both Gnostic and more conventional writings, and we learn quite a bit about conventional Christianity. And it's clear that the early Christians believed that men have spirits. Also, many people of all religious backgrounds have had Near Death Expieriences that indicate not only do we have spirits that continue on after death, but that our spirits existed before we came to the Earth. Some accounts I've read of people who died in accidents or on the operating table describe meeting people they knew before coming to the Earth.
If people live after they die, they exist as spirits, which mean they're not resurrected as spirits. They're resurrected in the same manner as Christ, which are physical resurrections with spirit instead of blood. Thus, the Father is spirit. It doesn't say he is a spirit. That was added. In the book of Hebrews, it reads of Christ: " Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." Further, Jesus was "appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (H ebrews 1:1-4) This is one of the most succinct scriptures in the New Testament. In essence, Christ is resurrected to be exactly like his Father gaining, by inheritance, all that the Father has.
Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, writes that " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... The [Holy] Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Thus, if Jesus becomes equal with the Father because he's an heir, and we too are heirs of the Father and "joint heirs with Christ," what does that mean for us? It means we inherit all that the Father has? So would you rather be a part of the "great crowd" and live on a garden planet for trillions of years, or would you rather be a "joint heir" with Christ and inherit all that he inerits?
This would be an interesting question to ask the guy at Bethel. After all, if we are the children of God we are heirs, and if heirs, then joint heirs with Christ. It doesn't say that only the "other sheep" can be children of God, does it? In fact, you can be a joint heir just by claiming it. There is no great crowd and there is no other sheep categories. Why? Because all the righteous can claim to be the children of God and become joint heirs with Christ, regardless of what resurrection category they think they're part of. Why would anyone choose to become part of the great crowd and spend the rest of eternity tending gardens and having family reunions? Wouldn't most normal people choose to be heirs with Christ and the Father, inheriting all that the Father has?
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Crisis of Conscience
Bookmarked
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myelaine
deat EndofMysteries...
you said: "I have been a little bit also looking into the possibility we are approaching the 'end' of the 1,000 year reign instead of the beginning as well. But that is another can of worms."
...interestingly the year 1054 saw the first division of the church when the churches of rome and constantinople broke fellowship. the protestant reformation has resulted in even futher division along docternal lines. which means that we are also coming up to 1000 years of the one body being divided. (satan would try to divide and conquer with the question of authority) scripture states that unless the end times were shortened noflesh would be saved but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. matthew 24:31...
*election by God doesn't mean you are somehow "better" it means you are a servant. the jewish people are the elect of God in that they were the only ones out of all the peoples of the earth who God chose to serve Him just as since the time of Jesus Christ on earth the church has been chosen to serve His purpose...in these end times the will of God will be brought to fruition in the restoration of the jewish people into the israel of God.
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. romans 11:25-32...
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 peter 2:7-10
love michelle
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EndofMysteries
myeline -
Other then just the scriptures, and after I even wrote that comment, yesterday I was researching a few things about ancient Jerusalem. What's interesting is that in the year 1033, exactly 1000 years after Christs death, they experienced a major earthquake, and the Gihon Spring/River became as sulfur/wormwood.
Modern Jerusalem is a fraud, the temple mount of today is actually a long forgotton ruin and location of where Romans were housed in Jesus time.
I am too tired to even think right now.
I am not fully understanding the bringing out about the divisions of the church and then speaking about the condition of the Israelites and them being elect and the gentiles who are elect how they relate or what you meant for me to take from that.
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myelaine
dear EndofMysteries...
thank you for asking me to explain. I will try the activities of God and the world are not static and so events portrayed in the bible shouldn't habitually be construed as something that is going to happen sometime in "the future". I mentioned the dates in reference to your statement because in order to solve the mystery you are confronted with you should use the scriptures to interpret the times AND the times to interpret the scriptures that is what revelation is about, seeking to reveal what is otherwise hidden. I think it is important to consider that things can be happening right in front of us and we aren't seeing it because we are stuck in the habit of thinking it couldn't happen to us, even though we KNOW that satan is subtle....
I think the 1000 years of the undivided church can be identified as the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ in His church before the direct infiltration of satan to cause disunity over the question of WHO is the authority when up until that time the authority of Christ maintained unity.satan caused division by stoking the flames of mans pride and ego and men allowed pride to come before the unity that Jesus prayed for in His followers. the fact that it is almost 1000 years since that division can also be identified as being the end time when satan brings his forces against the church.
the visions in the book of revelation are not in cronological order so that we can possitively say one thing will be happening and then the next thing will be happening. often events are overlapping. for example, the saints reign with Christ in the church/zion for 1000 years and right after the thousand years satan is let loose but the saints are still being added to the church/zion (the city of God hebrews 12:22) while satan is simutaniously gathering his armies for the 1000 years. some scenes span great lengths of time...and a lot of events can happen on earth that seem to take no time at all in john's visions.
I hope you will agree that there has never been a greater turning away from the orthodox faith than there is in these days...much like it is portrayed in scripture that the gate of hell will be opened causing the locust army to be released to torment all those who DON'T have the seal of God. they will torment by way of false teaching. (I say teaching because this locust army looks something "like" (revelation 9:7-11) those who are in the army of God(revelation 9:17-21 [the latter also do harm to those who DON'T have the seal of God because they have their mission to cause people to repent TO God while the locust army has its mission to devour like the locust would devour the produce of a field]...I see this in the different cults and sects that have arisen during the last 100 years or so that cause the UN-sealed people to be abused in their spirit by slowly eating away at their spirit to the point that even the tender root would whither and become hardened...whereas the orthodox faith has seen an increase in christian apologists that would "plague" these in their counter evangelisim...this is ultimately a battle between the forces of God and satan.
the apostle paul says that before the second advent of Jesus Christ men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap up for themselves false teachers that would turn them aside from the truth.(2 timothy 4:3) sound doctrine is something that has been thoroughly analysed and accepted for a long time...NOT new doctrine that is said to be a return to the pure form of worship like the WT teaches or the other sects and cults (of which there are many) that say they have discovered what the ministry of Jesus "really" meant.
I think that because there is so much involvement in spiritism now a days it isn't even just a matter of people being deceived by the spirits of the fallen angels but the testimony of so of these spiritists is convincing evidence to the fact that many people have wholely given their bodies over to be fully possessed by these spirits and they unfortunately will find their "end" with these fallen angels...sometimes without completely comprehending what is going on.
BUT the will of God for israel His people (the *election) continues into the final harvest of the field(matthew 13:38-43), the wheat and the tares[rev 14:14-20](which He will hasten lest no flesh be saved) *Election just means that God is the one who took the initiative and He chose us.
love michelle
p.s. I would like to add that the different denominations/houses of the church were living peacefully and securely in their "city" before the turn of the last century when they became surrounded by the various cults and pseudo christian sects that arose to draw people away. rev. 20:7-9
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EndofMysteries
I'll have to reply in the day vs when I'm about to fall asleep but a few things about what you're saying. There wasn't complete unity even in Paul's time, congregations were going astray. There were breakoffs, agnostic, etc, in early writings. In 300 then it's reversed but many pagan practices adapted to make the pagans more willing to convert. Bottom line, I don't see a 1,000 year period of history where christianity was pure.
The few reasons I am entertaining the idea that possibly we are at the end of the 1,000 year reign vs the beginning are, 1. During this period it says Jesus will bring an end to human rule, and FINALLY an end to death. If it happened on the first day, then there would be nothing to do inbetween. The world is becoming combined and possibly a one world government being part of this, if everything combined then he himself took over. 2. Super natural events had ceased after his time, although many said to be God, based on what Revelation says Satan would do also match up w/ things supposedly done by God, so if he was the one tricking people into thinking he was God, that would also answer why it all stopped then. 3. In Revelation after the 1,000 year reign, Satan is released and it describes Gog and Magog surrounding the camp of the holy ones and fire comes down and destroys them. That matches up with Ez, 2 or 3 whole chapters detailing that event. If it happens at the end of the 1,000 year reign.....well long story short, many of the things the WT teach will happen at 'armagedon' are actually what happen at the end of the 1,000 year reign.
I do not see in the bible it actually taught armagedon, then 1,000 years of nobody dying, dead raised, everything perfect, then Satan released to trick them all, it seems more like 1,000 year reign where governments and kingdoms continue on, people still die, and it's merely Satan's influence is gone, but he is able to deceive them because he fools them into thinking he is God when he is released. (another possibility is that was an inspiration by him, to make us reject God, when this event happens it will divide people, some saying it's God and some saying it's Satan. It may be hard to figure out the truth. )
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ziddina
Heh, heh...
I haven't taken time to read every post, but this reminds me of a great YouTube video - if I can find it again...
Hah! Found it. Now, if it only will post...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-fvQZCZIqE&list=PLB21A9B475EDD73A5&index=5&feature=plpp_video
I love the point this man makes - and keeps repeating. That one scripture shows the "Great Crowd" worshipping in front of the "throne of God" IN HEAVEN...!
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irondork
<copy> pleonasm, <insert into online dictionary>, <learn new word>
My contribution:
That all members of Christ's management team must be present in heaven at the same time was taught by Russell. In Crisis of Conscience (page 189,190, 4th edition, 2004) Franz quotes from the book The Time Is At Hand:
Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of A.D. 1914 the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.