The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?

by Recovery 114 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Etude said:

    The one we're discussing, whether and if it's a circular earth on a circular ocean or a spherical earth must exclude the mention of "corners" as a support for assuming that the ancients believed the world was flat and having corners.

    What we're discussing is not new, as resolving that same conflict between various scriptures drove Prof Ferguson, a rabid protectorate of the literality of the Bible, to propose this model of the Earth in 1893 (of course, this was long before we had aircraft, satellites, etc):

    THIS is what holding onto 3,000 yr old science gets you, making you look like a fool for trying to grasp onto ancient cosmology, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You thought the Luddites were bad? This is bronze-age-era Luddism.

  • supernerdboy
    supernerdboy

    Back when I was still in I asked a lot of people if god lot the war of the 2 3rds of heaven and saten now was the ruler would you still serve god even thou8gh you would die for it. We serve god becouse we want somthing in return not becouse god is good he has done satonic things if you wikk, If the bible is true about got it is becouse god lost and saten is the real ruler, who rewrote the bible.

    Also here is a logical falicy. It goes in a loop of lies: God is love. God is a jelelus god who grags many times. Love does not brag does not get puffed up... is not jelus.... Counterdiction if you ever did see one. Fuck the the bible. (is it ok to use words like that here mr S? Kind of like to put one in every so often to remind myself that I am free now and that I should not feel gulty about such things. Now I just need to decide if I want to stay a virgon.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Leolaia, I truly respect your opinions and your craftiness for supporting what you say with research. However (oh no!), the reason I mentioned how a circle would not be associated (within this discussion) with a flat surface is because of Finkelstein's reference regarding Daniel 4:10-11 (his post 1143), which prompted King Solomon to inform me that "And neither circles or spheres have corners (much less 4 corners)." You make a fine point by mentioning the "circle of the earth" as in Isaiah 40:22 to suggest a circular land mass on a flat surface. But Job 26:10 and Proverbs 8:27 refer to the circle over the "watery deep" or on the "surface of the waters". So, while that would agree with your presentation that a circular Earth was bounded by a circular ocean, it contradicts the references to corners of the earth (as many ancients believed, especially the Bible writers).

    Yes, I see the point you are making, and it is reminiscent of what Ibn Ezra said about Isaiah 40:22 proving that the earth is not square in shape. I do not think however the phrase "four corners of the earth" necessarily invokes a distinctly "square-earth" cosmology. The reference is to the extremities on all four quadrants of the compass (north, east, west, south), or the four quarters of the earth, which need not require the earth to be shaped like a square.

    The two Hebrew expressions have the sense of "outer limits" or "extremities". First, the phrase 'arba` kanpôt ha'arets (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekiel 7:2) is often translated in English "the four corners of the earth" (following the KJV) but the Hebrew kanap has more of the sense of "extremity" than "corner" per se; when it is applied to clothing it could refer to either corners or the loose end of the garment. When the expression occurs without the numeral (as in Job 37:3), English translations tend to translate it as "the ends of the earth". The actual word that specifically meant "corner" (i.e. an "angle" between two sides) was pinnah which usually referred to a corner of a building or structure (1 Kings 7:34, 2 Kings 14:13, 2 Chronicles 26:15, Nehemiah 3:31, Job 1:19, Proverbs 21:9, Ezekiel 43:20, 45:19, 3Q15 3:1, 5, 10, 11QTemple 30:5-8), which did not occur in reference to the earth. Kanpôt was rendered literally in the LXX and Theodotion (pterugas) and Symmachus rendered it with akra "extremities". Jeremiah 49:36 makes reference to the "four ends of the earth" and there the term is qetsôt, which the LXX renders as akra and Theodotion translates as teleutaia "endings". The same word (and its Aramaic cognate) occurs occasionally elsewhere to refer to the "ends of the earth" (Job 28:24, Isaiah 40:28, 41:5, 9, 4Q451 9:4, 11Q10 8:5).

    It is in the Greek where there is an expression using the specific word for corner: gònia. The expression "the four corners of the earth" (tas tessaras gònias tès gès) in Revelation 7:1, 20:8 is what gave rise to the idiom in English. The use of gònias to refer to the extremities of the earth was not used in Greek outside of Jewish apocalyptic literature and later texts dependent on Revelation. The earliest possible example of this expression is in 1 Enoch 18:2: "I saw the foundation of the earth and the cornerstone of the earth (ton lithon tès gònias tès gès). I saw the four winds bearing the earth and the firmament of heaven". This translates the original Aramaic; the wording however is ambiguous and could be parsed incorrectly as "I saw the stone of the corners of the earth, I saw the four winds etc." This is very close to what is stated in Revelation 7:1: "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth restraining the four winds of the earth". So what was originally a reference to the earth's cornerstone became a reference to the "corners of the earth". The reference to the four winds in 1 Enoch and Revelation was typical of the ANE re the different winds at the four cardinal points of the compass, cf. Pliny the Elder: "The ancients reckoned only four winds corresponding to the four parts of the world....There are two in each of four quarters of the heavens" (Historia Naturalis, 2.119). The cosmology in the Book of Watchers construes the winds as supporting not only the earth underneath but the heavens themselves: "I saw how the winds stretch out the height of heaven. They stand between earth and heaven; they are the pillars of heaven" (18:3). This explicates the cosmological statement in Job 26:7 regarding the north being stretched over the void and the earth upon nothing.

    It should also be pointed out that the true extremities lay beyond the encircling ocean in much of the ANE tradition. The Babylonian map of the world depicts seven islands beyond the encircling ocean, including probably Dilmun, the paradise of the gods (where Utnapishtim lives in immortality). The typical Greek cosmography posited a world-encircling Okeanos and beyond it lay the Fortunate Islands and the Elysian Fields in the west (where the blessed live forever), the island of Alba in the east, and Hyperborea in the north where the Hyperborean winds originate from. Josephus similarly stated that the Essenes believed that the righteous dead reside in the Islands of the Blessed beyond the Okeanos, and clearly he has in mind the kind of cosmography that occurs in the Book of Parables. Enoch journeyed to the west to a river of fire and the fire of the west (which is responsible for the sunsets) and came to "the great sea of the west" (17:7) and beyond it lay mountains of jewels and "beyond these mountains is a place, the edge of the great earth, where the heavens come to an end, and I saw a great chasm among pillars of heavenly fire," and beyond the chasm was "a place that was neither firmament of heaven above, nor firmly founded earth beneath it" (18:12). This was the location of the prison of the fallen angels and rebellious stars. Meanwhile, towards the east at the extremities of the world lay the mountain of God and the tree of life (ch. 24); this is where Enoch later is placed where he lives eternally. Other Jewish sources refer to Paradise as at the eastern extremity of the world, at a place that is either already part of heaven or where the gates of heaven are located. So the extremities of the earth were not necessarily contained within the confines of the world ocean. There was a lot of ambiguity and speculation on what lay beyond the confines of the known world, a realm that was both (or neither) earth and heaven, where both heaven and the underworld were accessible. Partly this ambiguity was because earth was usually conceptually opposed to both heaven and the ocean; the realm of the ocean and what lay beyond the ocean was liminal between these two binary oppositions. It is not inconceivable that some could have thought of "corners" laying beyond the world ocean, just as the Babylonian Mappa Mundi depicts triangular islands at the extremities.

    At some point, we would have to assume that they believed the ocean surrounding the circle-Earth was square and not a circle in order to support the "corners" theory (if they believed that the term came from a square flat earth).

    Yeah I don't think that's necessarily the case. And "corner" does not necessarily imply "square" either. BTW there is an interesting parallel to the biblical "inscribing a circle on the deep" in Herodotus who described the maps made by ancient cartographers (such as Hecataeus of Miletus, reminiscent somewhat to the Babylonian Mappa Mundi), "who draw Okeanos flowing around the earth, which is made wheel-shaped as if by compasses (eousan kukloterea hòs apo tornou)" (Historiae, 4.36).

    I think that a lot of that is subject to speculation and is all inconclusive.

    I agree with you there.

  • Etude
    Etude

    Leolaia , as usual you've been very thorough. Your research confirms for me that there was never a simple and single understanding of the topography of the world in ancient times, but particularly those that influenced the Bible writers. That's mainly why I objected to use of "corners" in association with flatness. Your explanation of "four corners" to reflect the cardinal points is much more apropos than my "corners of the room" analogy.

    I was reminded of a depiction of the Hindu universe island sitting on 4 elephants, or the references in Job about the "pillars" of the earth (even though a number is not specified) or the Chinese folk religion that specifies four mountains as the pillars of the world or the four pillars that helped Shu the Egyptian god of air hold up the sky, etc. That number pops up all over the place in reference to ancient concepts of the world.

    I'm not clear about the Hebrew concept of the world regarding the order of the "world layers". While it would appear that a circular earth surrounded by a circular ocean sat on some foundations (pillars), my reading of the texts that refer to both (the earth and watery deep) do not really indicate which sits atop of which. Here's one depiction where the earth sits on top of the oceans but the pillars are holding it up while embedded in "watery deep". It's different from other depictions where the "island" earth surrounded by the oceans sits atop something else (or not).

    While it's very informative and fascinating in themselves, there's no point making sense of what the ancients believed in comparison to each other since their creations are essentially self-contained. However, it's easy to see how one influenced the other or several others.

    Even though I find that humanity in those days would have had a problem conceiving how people on the other side of a spherical world might not fall off, and even though it's unlikely that they actually thought of a spherical world (sans the elephants, snakes and turtles, air gods and what-have-you), I can't totally rule out that they didn't have some concept of the curvature of the earth, although a very incomplete one.

    Since ideas in science don't just spring up out of nowhere, it's possible that by the time the Greeks (3rd Century B.C.) hit on the spherical nature of Earth, some other prior cultures had the foundations for it. One clue is the compensations the Hindus made for the latitudes while using sun dials. That's a very important clue and indicator of curvature in the landscape. There's evidence that the Greeks (at or before the Hellenistic period) "borrowed" from the Hindus, which eventually led them to the "two-sphere" cosmic model.

    Even though we strayed off topic, I believe that this conversation should establish sufficiently for Recovery that there are inconsistencies in the Bible and that what they believed is a far cry from what we know in the present, as the WTBTS would have people believe. My particular attitude is that if we can question, doubt, debate and discuss issues like this, it means we not only have the freedom to do so, but we have the right to dissent and not be forced to make conclusions where none are forthcoming. That's the real distinction of truth.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Of course, my point in mentioning "four corners of the Earth" was to introduce the topic, knowing fully -well the lengths that Orlando Ferguson went to protect it in creating that monstrosity of a map to support the literal interpretation (based on a sketchy translation) of the Bible.

    Also notice his attempt to ridicule basic science facts: YES, we are in fact spinning at 1,000 mph on the surface of the Earth, and hurling on a path around the sun at 65,000 mph, and we're not doing it "in our minds", but in reality. NO, the Sun and Moon are not attached to a rotating arm that's found at the North Pole... He shows the characteristic arrogance of a Xian who's backed by the certainty of God's infallible word. You think he'd admit to being wrong if he were alive today? I somehow doubt it.

    THAT'S what happens when men rely on 3,000 old scientific ideas found in the Bible, and act as if they trump anything "mere unworthy mortal men" come up with.

    It infuriates me to consider that scientists such as Galileo had to contend with the likes of Roman Catholic theologians and popes, who felt that their knowledge of the Bible had anything of relevance to offer when it comes to scientific matters. The same thing exists in the modern day, when it comes to issues like stem cell research and women's reproductive issues (Akin, anyone?).

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