I Want Proof Jesus Even Existed

by Farkel 199 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  mP

  Las malvinas

  I see a man who saw himself first as a teacher, then a revolutionary within his birth religion, before finally manufacturing a messiah claim in order to gain momentum in the Jewish diaspora.

  mP

  Jesus was not a revolutionary. He was never spoke against the pathetic attitudes of the jewish religion against women and gentiles. He also failed to ever speak out against slavery. Given almost half the population wwere slaves, was he blind ? The story of Spartacus , shows life as a slave must have been bad given so many were willing to risk certain death when the Romans sent their armies.

  You have been listening too much to xian theology that is not based on secripture. We find the absurd situation that one of Jesus most prominent directives is that his followers should pay taxes to Rome above all else that is good.
• 

  mP

  Leo:

  A reeaaal stretch.

  mP:

  In what way ? Have you actually examined the exact match between titus and jesus ministry, the sequence of the campaign matches exactly jesus ministry. People, name places, puns there are far too many concindences. Not to mention the seeminly eerie connection between the church and the history of the religion in terms of popes, saints and even the formation of the canon.
• 

  Xanthippe

  Ucantnome Yes Tacitus and I think the other primary source is Xenophones but I'm not 100% sure of that.

  Tacitus says in The Annals, number 44., Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.

  Accordingly they first arrested all who peaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of thhe crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

  Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burned, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

  Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved exteme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to gut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

  (My translation is a Washington Square Press Book)
• 

  Xanthippe

  sorry I should have typed 'to glut one man's cruelty'
• 

  mP

  Xan:

  Tacitus says in The Annals, number 44., Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.

  mP:

  Tacitus also tells us that Nero was resurrected and performed miracles.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Redivivus_legend

  At least three Nero imposters emerged leading rebellions. The first, who sang and played the cithara or lyre and whose face was similar to that of the dead emperor, appeared in 69 during the reign of Vitellius. [5] During the reign of Titus(c 79-81) there was another impostor who appeared in Asiaand also sang to the accompaniment of the lyre and looked like Nero but he, too, was exposed [6] . Twenty years after Nero's death, during the reign of Domitian, there was a third pretender. Supported by the Parthians, who hardly could be persuaded to give him up [7] , the matter almost came to war. [8]

  Some bible scholars see the description of the wounding and healing of the Beast in Revelation 13:3 and the mention of the eighth king who is also one of the earlier seven kings in Revelation 17:8-11 as allusions to the Nero redivivus legend. [9]

  [edit] Notes

  1. ^ a b c Augustine of Hippo, City of God XX.19.3
  2. ^ The Sibylline Oracles, IV, 119-124; V.137-141; V.361-396
  3. ^ AntiChrist(avrixpu ros)
  4. ^ Dio Chrysostom, Discourse XXI, On Beauty
  5. ^ Tacitus, Histories II.8 <---------------
  6. ^ Dio, LXVI.19.3
  7. ^ Suetonius, LVII
  8. ^ Tacitus, I.2 <-------------------
• 

  mP

  Xan:

  as i have previously stated you have bought the b/s that the Romans persecuted xians because of their beliefs. That is utterly untrue. The Romans were a business, as long as you paid your taxes and didnt rebel they didnt care what God you worshipped. The jews however were different. As we all know the OT very much insists the jews must be separate from everyone else and promised them that they were chosen for greatness. Unfortunately they believed those lies and they tried many times to rebel against the Romans. There wre no xians, however the state was killing the troublesome jews who were disturbing the peace.

  heres but one group of jewish troublmeakers.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
• 

  Leolaia

  Yes, I read through his book quite a few years ago, and it was awful. IMO. Not as bad though as Tony Bushby's books since Bushby is a flatout liar whereas Atwill is honest with his sources but just constructs an utterly preposterous thesis that ignores the vast scope of scholarship on early Judaism and early Christianity's place within it.

  It's been a while since I've looked at it, but Robert Price's review (Price, as you know, is a scholar who is thoroughly skeptical of the historicity of Jesus) sums up a lot of my thoughts I had on it:

  http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm

  And Rome wasn't the be-all-end-all of early Christianity. I know the Western Church sees it that way but that is an extremely myopic view of the diverse scope of the movement.
• 

  mP

  Leo:

  Not as bad though as Tony Bushby's books since Bushby is a flatout liar whereas Atwill is honest with his sources but just constructs an utterly preposterous thesis that ignores the vast scope of scholarship on early Judaism and early Christianity's place within it.

  mP:

  You have not actually given an opinion why its wrong. Sure many scholars disagree, but then again there many people called scholars in all the diff xian religions who disagree with each other. How do you explain the coincidences ?

  Leo:

  And Rome wasn't the be-all-end-all of early Christianity. I know the Western Church sees it that way but that is an extremely myopic view of the diverse scope of the movement.

  mP:

  This further demonstrates that mythmaking involved in defining what is the standard accepted history viewed by everyone. If anything this adds weight to the fact that the church has edited history for politicial purposes.
• 

  mP

  Ive read Prices response, and while i agree that Atwills theory has problems. However out of all other views its the easiest view that makes sense. The extraoradinary that xianity wants believers to believe is utterly wrong, and imcompatible with whats actually in the text. We also know that the gospels and other NT texts have been edited many times for fame, fortune and power. These changes in themselves mean the original emssage has been lost and altered. If we see the campaign of titus embeededd in Jesus ministry it does not matter if there are problems in Mt, Lu, Mk and John. So somebody some where later mixed their thoughts and priorities with some other text to produce a new gospel. I accept that has happened, whatever the original mesage had writen we will never know and it does not matter. It simply shows the text is human and not at all inspired and definitely not perfect and unchanged.

  At the very least we can ignore religious views which pretend the texts are benevolent and a mesage from god. The more we realise and accept that religion is simply a toold of manipulation by the ruling elite the closer we are to the truth.

  The review spends too much time mocking and not enough time giving examples with backing. Anytime it makes a point that something is wrong, it should say why that assertion by JA is wrong instead of poking fun. That sounds childish and hardly scholarly.
• 

  HelpMeBelieve

  Mp, how about debating

  Paul L. Maier, The Russell H. Seibert Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University? His fiction books are so-so but his expertise is with ancient Christianity, he is formidible for being an old geezer! We both are reading different historical accounts of Jews and Christians. Are you using other sources than Wiki, have you read the big volume books with plenty of details or do you focus on anti-Jesus websites? I've read most of Maier's, Wallace, Bart D's and many more books on the ancients. Can you comment on Maier's short page here? Here's the link:

  http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbjesus.aspx?pageid=8589952895

  "Cornelius Tacitus, one of the most reliable source historians of first-century Rome, wrote in his Annals a year-by-year account of events in the Roman Empire under the early Caesars. Among the highlights that he reports for the year A.D. 64 was the great fire of Rome. People blamed the emperor Nero for this conflagration since it happened "on his watch," but in order to save himself, Nero switched the blame to "the Christians," which is the first time they appear in secular history. Careful historian that he was, Tacitus then explains who "the Christians" were: "Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus" (15:44). He then goes on to report the horrors that were inflicted on the Christians in what became their first Roman persecution."

  "Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus also recorded events of the first century in his famous Lives of the Twelve Caesars. He, too, regarded the Christians as a sect "professing a new and mischievous religious belief" (Nero 16) and doubtless cited "Christus" as well, spelling his name "Chrestus" (Claudius 25). That the vowels "e" and "i" were often interchangeable is demonstrated by the French term for "Christian" to this day: chretien