I Want Proof Jesus Even Existed

by Farkel 199 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    There is no proof. I do think the balance of the evidence favors the standard model of Jesus' historicity, at least on the broad outlines, than otherwise, although it isn't something to be dogmatic about (there is much room for doubt). It is rather akin in my mind to the question of the existence of the Teacher of Righteousness, the founder of the Qumran sect of the Essenes. There probably was a founder for this well-defined religious group (remarked even by Pliny as residing by the Dead Sea), and the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate both the time when he was active (the 150s BC IIRC) and his teachings. But such a figure is not mentioned in any contemporary sources unlike he is identified with any of a number of other figures in the Hasmonean period. Still most Qumranic scholars accept that such that person probably existed.

    I am inclined to think that the Christian movement had its start within the popular movement of John the Baptist (to whom Josephus refers); the book of Acts at least shows that many in the early Jerusalem church (helmed by James the Just) had been members of that movement. (John the Baptist, in turn, can be situated quite well within popular Essenism) John was then executed by Herod Antipas and his movement did not come to a sudden stop but seems to have been absorbed within the later Christian movement. It makes good historical sense to think that after John died, someone else stepped into his shoes, took the movement in a new direction by claiming to be a messiah (and Josephus shows that messianic pretenders were quite common in the period), and then was executed by the local Roman government for sedition (again not unusual). Jesus did not need to develop his own movement from scratch but simply drew on an already-existing one, and since John was popularly believed to be Elijah, there was already a biblical model for a successor (with Jesus as an Elisha figure.....hence the miracle stories in the gospels which largely seem to draw on OT stories about Elisha). Then after Jesus' death the movement continued under the leadership of James and the apostles John and Peter (the pillars mentioned by Paul), which sought to work out the meaning and implications (both eschatological and soteriological) of Jesus' death, shifting the focus from halakhic matters of how to achieve true righteousness (the primary concern for John the Baptist, the Jesus of the synoptic gospels, and to a great extent what we know about James) to what Jesus achieved as messiah through his death and resurrection (which is what became the primary concern for Paul). And then Paul transformed the movement further, spreading his own form of this religious tradition into the West to a largely non-Jewish population, where it drifted further from its Palestinian Jewish roots (with much friction resulting between Pauline Christianity and more traditional Torah-observant Christians). Paul was quite clear that he was somewhat of a Johnny-come-lately and that there was already in existence a Jesus movement before him.

    So my view of things comes more from the perspective of accounting for the social history of religious movements, which leave a larger historical footprint than any single individual. I think the question posed by the mythicists is whether it is necessary to posit Jesus' existence in order to explain the origin and spread of Christianity. There is no denying the mythical dimension of much of what early Christians believed about Jesus, such as what we find in Paul and in proto-gnosticism, and there is no doubt that the gospel writers invented a lot of the narrative by drawing creatively on OT material. But I do not think it was necessarily "turtles all the way down" because real people did claim to be messiahs (such as Simon bar Kochba) and it was the office of the messiah that drew on a host of mythical traditions about messianic identity and function. One can readily recognize how the ideas surrounding Jesus Christ in the NT incorporates many layers of messianic tropes already present in pre-Christian messianic Judaism. For example, Jesus as the eschatological heavenly "Son of Man" directly borrows the Enochic conception of the "Son of Man" and heavenly Wisdom found in the Essene Book of Parables from the early first century AD. Qumran messianic texts have expectations about various future end-times priestly and royal figures (CD, 4Q246, 4Q252, 4Q521, 4Q534, 4Q540-541, 11QMelch) which have strong parallels to ideas found in the NT regarding Jesus. These and many other notions drawn from the OT (such as the messiah as the Suffering Servant figure from Deutero-Isaiah, as a Moses figure, etc.) were applied to Jesus by those who believed that he was the messiah. But what is striking is that in all pre-Christian eschatological texts about the messiah, the messiah is an imagined future deliverer, whereas the earliest Christian texts look upon Jesus as a messiah whose activity lay in the past (and who continues to be active in the present). The only Jewish parallel that readily comes to mind is John the Baptist, who occupied the role of Elijah redivivus. There was an established mythic eschatological expectation that Elijah, a heavenly figure, would return at the end of days, and those expectations looked towards the future. The followers of John the Baptist however drew on Elijah mythology as pertaining to the past: "Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished" (Matthew 17:12, Mark 9:13; cf. Luke 9:8, "others said Elijah had appeared" regarding Jesus' succession to John the Baptist). This seems to be quite parallel to what happened with Jesus. It wasn't simply a matter of Jews hoping for the return of Elijah inventing the character of John the Baptist as a mythic Elijah figure to fulfill those expectations; John was a historical person who led a popular Jewish movement critical of the Herodian administration, as Josephus makes clear, but the religious movement came to identify him as Elijah whose return at the end times had been prophesied. In the case of Simon bar Kochba, a clearly historical figure, we can see a similar pattern. He was identified with the "star", a heavenly symbol, from the Balaam oracles in Numbers. The description that Jerome gives of him smoking lighted blades of straw while he talked suggests that Simon tried to identify himself with the messianic "Man From the Sea" figure from 4 Ezra who spoke with a fire in his mouth and sent forth "from his lips a fiery breath" (13:10-11). So too it is conceivable that another messianic claimant, Jesus, could come to be viewed as identified with the Enochic Son of Man, as heavenly Wisdom, as the Logos, as the branch of David, as Melchizedek, as the morning star, as the Moses-like Taheb, etc. Christians seemed to apply every single messianic motif in existence to their messiah. So I do not find that all this mythologizing and theologizing necessarily indicates that Jesus originated as a purely mythological character, and there are indications that a non-mythological human being lies under the surface. Paul loves to talk about Christ in abstract, cosmic terms when he is theologizing about the religious significance and meaning of Jesus, but when he writes more plainly about his history in the Christian movement in his apologia in Galatians, Jesus appears more down-to-earth as the brother of the leader of the Jerusalem church, James (1:19; cf. 1 Corinthians 9:5), and even when he was theologizing he still clearly conceived of Jesus as a Jew who was "born under the Law" (Galatians 4:4) and "descended from David under the flesh" (Romans 1:3-4), and who was killed just as the prophets of old were killed (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). This does not prove that Jesus was a historical figure; the evidence overall is much, much too slight to serve as proof of anything solid, but it does show that Paul did think of Jesus as a flesh-and-blood person and thus it is incorrect to characterize Paul as conceptualizing Jesus purely as a timeless heavenly figure. I think what can be glimpsed in Paul is the process of mythologizing a messianic claimant as all the things a proper messiah should be; Jesus was to him at the same time the person who was born under the Law and who died and was buried, as well as the heavenly Son of God who pre-existed his earthly life and who rules over all creation by his Father's side. It was the belief in Jesus' resurrection (revealed to Paul, Peter, and others through vision) that allowed Paul and other early Christians to connect the messanic claimant Jesus with the imagined spiritual being in heaven who embodies everything that Second-Temple Judaism expected the heavenly Son of Man/Logos/Wisdom to be.

    Anyway, that's just my own hypothesis and opinion....I am pretty agnostic about the matter and whenever I write about the origins of Christianity I always try to focus it more on the community (for which there is a lot more evidence) than an individual, Jesus, who is buried under such a heavy weight of interpretative traditions that I never felt certain that there was someone there underneath it all. Many scholars have sought to reconstruct the "historical Jesus" and their efforts show just how arbitrary and subjective such an enterprise is. But I think there is a good case to be made that there was a historical figure at the font of the Christian movement (just as the Teacher of Righteouness was the founder of the Qumran sect, just as Simon the Galilean was the founder of the Zealot movement, just as Muhammad was the founder of Islam, just as Martin Luther was the founder of the Protestant movement, just as Joseph Smith was the founder of the Mormon movement, etc.), and if religious tradition unanimously names that figure as Jesus, I think it is more likely to surmise that there was a messianic claimant bearing that name who was later mythologized (which is a common pattern in religious movements) than a purely mythological figure who was historicized. But I do not consider this a matter that could be definitively proven, and like many other aspects of history, it is something that can be debated and doubted. The proof just isn't there....at least not with the evidence we currently have.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Sab, you said this:

    Even Judaism regards Jesus as an extremely important prophet and a heckofa Jew. One thing is clear, this mysterious "man" not only split Judaism in two, but he made such a ruckus that Isalm started because of the fighting between the Christians and the Jews OVER the idea of him.

    There were many sects which developed in Judaism long before Jesus arrived, and the prophet Mohammed (father of Islam) arrived circa 600 CE.

    None of which means anything as far as proving that a historical Jesus existed (I suspect someone named Jesus did, where tons of writer's embellishment occurred after progressive Jews like Paul, having been raised as any other young Jewish male and having been trained by memorizing the Torah, depicted Jesus as the fulfillment of many prophecies, after the fact).

    Once the Romans adopted Christianity as their official state religion, the rest is history.

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    None of which means anything as far as proving that a historical Jesus existed (I suspect someone named Jesus did, where tons of writer's embellishment occurred after progressive Jews like Paul, having been raised as any other young Jewish male and having been trained by memorizing the Torah, depicted Jesus as the fulfillment of many prophecies, after the fact).

    Once the Romans adopted Christianity as their official state religion, the rest is history.

    This is precicely my point (Isalm is a side point). Even you agree that "a man" existed, yet you have no proof (because none exists). Imo, you must give this "man" the proper credit of dramatically changing the religious landscape of the future (which includes US), whether he meant to or not.

    -Sab

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    The best "proof" I've seen so far is faith, ergo there is no proof so far.

    The bullshit in this thread is piled higher than the sum-total of Watchtower lies.

    But thank you for sharing, bullshiters.

    A "Jesus" may have existed but not the Bible "Jesus." God may also exist, but I don't think "Bible-God" exists, and if he does, I offer my middle-digit to Him.

    Farkel

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    I think ANECDOTAL evidence is the best you will get. Hard evidence - forget about it.

  • keeshondgirl
  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Sab said:

    Imo, you must give this "man" the proper credit of dramatically changing the religious landscape of the future (which includes US), whether he meant to or not.

    Sooo, if a mythology grows up around an mortal man (who put his robe on one arm at a time, just as any other man) who had no knowledge of what would occur after his death, he gets the credit?

    You mentioned how Jesus dramatically "changed" the World: aside from his impact on religion as serving as a figure, what did he accomplish exactly for the benefit of humanity?

    I've often thought that if Jesus WERE as adherent to the principles of Judaism as reflected in some scriptures, he'd be horrified to discover that he became the figure surrounding a new syncretic religion, with many words ascribed to him having been likely inserted into his mouth (and given that there's multiple versions of even something as basic as what his last words on the cross were before he died, it seems likely that many writers were writing the script independently).

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Sooo, if a mythology grows up around an mortal man (who put his robe on one arm at a time, just as any other man) who had no knowledge of what would occur after his death, he gets the credit?

    It's not illogical to say he was trying to change the world he lived within, it was kinda in need of change, you know? That change came and is still affecting the world today.

    You mentioned how Jesus dramatically "changed" the World: aside from his impact on religion as serving as a figure, what did he accomplish exactly for the benefit of humanity?

    He benefited humanity by standing up to a corrupt religious organization who was wrongly interpreting the Bible (sound familar?) offering a model for all subsquent Christians to mimic. His philosophy is timeless and still is used today whether people realize it or not. He deserves credit, that's why 1 John 4:3 speaks about the acknowledgement of Christ being so important.

    I've often thought that if Jesus WERE as adherent to the principles of Judaism as reflected in some scriptures, he'd be horrified to discover that he became the figure surrounding a new syncretic religion, with many words ascribed to him having been likely inserted into his mouth (and given that there's multiple versions of even something as basic as what his last words on the cross were before he died, it seems likely that many writers were writing the script independently).

    Christ preached unity with God, not with any man made organization. He chose fishermen as his disciples, not leaders. His run in with the religion of the day is proof that he was against using a book to control the population. Such ends in nothing but misery, oppression and horrible death. He would be, and IS, horrified by the warping of his words to suit the purposes of ideologies he was tearing down.

    The best "proof" I've seen so far is faith, ergo there is no proof so far.

    The bullshit in this thread is piled higher than the sum-total of Watchtower lies.

    But thank you for sharing, bullshiters.

    A "Jesus" may have existed but not the Bible "Jesus." God may also exist, but I don't think "Bible-God" exists, and if he does, I offer my middle-digit to Him.

    Farkel

    You knew before you made this thread that no such proof exists. Does that mean it was a disingenuous question? Leolaia made quite the case. Are you about to call her as bad as the GB? REALLY? Common, man. No, there is not enough evidence to demand the belief in Jesus as the Son of God. That would mean that anyone who imposes the idea of Jesus is a fraud. It's about faith and always has been. That's the way it's supposed to be. God wants faith, why is that hard to understand? Don't you want your friends to have faith in you? Why can't God ask the same of us?

    -Sab

  • mP
    mP

    Its amazing how so many ppl here are simply repeating without thinking facts that the Roman Catholic Church presents to them about the origins of xianity.

    Ucant*

    I might be wrong but i think Nero persecuted the Christians in AD64 before the death of some of the apostles and the 500 Paul mentions who saw the resurrected Jesus. Some of the persecution was recorded I believe by Tacitus and others.

    Christianity still grew despite this persecution

    ,mP

    Do the research and you will realise that there is no evidence for this statement. In fact this idea is simply taken from tradition given to use by the RCC. Does anyone honestly believe the other RCC tradition that Peter came to ROme and then was succeeded by the cousin of emperor Vespasian.

    You should realise that even the WTS will agree that the followers of Jesus was Jews. WHen you realise the Jews were hated by the Romans for their rebellious nature based on their religious beliefs and general anti social activities you will realise that yes the Romans did kill Jews, but only because they were big trouble makers. Need i saw more about their major rebellions in the 70s and eighty odd years afterwards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_I

    Pope Clement I (fl. 96), [1] also known as Saint Clement of Rome (in Latin, Clemens Romanus), is listed from an early date as a Bishop of Rome. [1] He was the first Apostolic Father of the Church. [2]

    Few details are known about Clement's life. According to Tertullian, Clement was consecrated by Saint Peter, [2] and he is known to have been a leading member of the church in Rome in the late 1st century. Early church lists place him as the second or third [1] [3] bishop of Rome after Saint Peter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_Peter

    Martyrdom
    Caravaggio's depiction of the crucifixion of Apostle Peter.

    The mention in the New Testament of the death of Peter says that Jesus indicated its form by saying: "You will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." [40] Early church tradition (as indicated below) says Peter probably died by crucifixion (with arms outstretched) at the time of the Great Fire of Rome of the year 64. Margherita Guarducci, who led the research leading to the rediscovery of Peter’s tomb in its last stages (1963–1968), concludes Peter died on 13 October AD 64 during the festivities on the occasion of the “dies imperii” of Emperor Nero. This took place three months after the disastrous fire that destroyed Rome for which the emperor wished to blame the Christians. This “dies imperii” (regnal day anniversary) was an important one, exactly ten years after Nero ascended to the thron

    How could Peter die in 64AD and also be around in the late 80s to pass the office of Pope to Clement ?

  • mP
    mP

    NewChapter

    I think it grew BECAUSE of persecution. My experience shows me that many Christians have a touchy persecution trigger and it makes them dig their heels in. The persecution wasn't religiously motivated at that time, but politically motivated.

    mP

    There is no proof for any persecution. The jews were hated by the Romans because their religion was based on many things that were incompatible with the unity of the empire. They were constantly rebelling even when they had no reasonable chance of success.

    Read a bit of history, its easy to see the Jews were a real nasty bunch causing trouble for the Romans. Im not a fan of the Romans, but lets be fair to what actually happened.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Rebellion

    The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt (Hebrew: ???? ????? ‎, ha-Mered Ha-Gadol, Latin: Primum Iudæorum Romani Bellum .), was the first of three major rebellions by the Jews of Judaea Province (Iudaea), against the Roman Empire. The second was the Kitos War in 115–117 CE; the third was Bar Kokhba's revolt of 132–135 CE).

    The Great Revolt began in the year 66 CE, originated in the Greek and Jewish religious tensions, later escalated due to anti-taxation protests and attacks upon Roman citizens. [3] The Roman military garrison of Judaea was quickly overrun by rebels and the pro-Roman king Agrippa II fled Jerusalem, together with Roman officials to Galilee. Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, brought the Syrian army, based on XII Fulminata, reinforced by auxiliary troops, to restore order and quell the revolt. The legion, however, was ambushed and defeated by Jewish rebels at the Battle of Beth Horon, a result that shocked the Roman leadership.

    Even after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70, they try again 40 years later and again 20 years after that. I havent even mentioned the rebellions before 70adm let me assure you there were many.

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