Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jwfacts

  Now this is significant. Notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven' but he simply says 'I heard'. There is no change in setting.

  Are you kidding. That is your argument. What a scholar you are.

  Revelation 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,

  These were visions, a dream. John was neither literally seeing these in heaven or on earth at the time.

  John goes on to say in verse 13 to say " And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?”" To use your terminology and reasoning, notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven'. By your reasoning, the elders must be on earth too, which is not what your religion teaches.
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  tootired2care

  Here is a couple of things I noticed from the passage you cited.

  The verses speak about 12k coming from each tribe of Israel (v5-8), and forheads having a mark. Obviously you can't take this passage literally as it is full of symbolic and representative language. If you did take it literally it would mean that only 144k literal Jews are annointed...If we apply this literally as you are by inference than where does that leave the gentiles?

  People that are brought to heaven are brought from where? wait for it, wait for it...the earth, so of course the context is the earth when it's speaking of those who are being taken to heaven to stand before the lamb duh!

  v9. After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count [not 144k?!?!], from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb [Funny it doesn't say they are on the earth does it?!?!].

  v14. "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" [So if some annointed have died post 1918 and been ressurected to heaven as the wt$ dogma would have you believe how is this criteria fullfilled?]

  There is so many ways this text could be intepreted and spun to suit any religious dogma. Your assertions haven't proven a thing.
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  Recovery

  I know they were signs. I know John was not literally transferred into heaven when he saw his visions. I know these were dreams. Instead of arguing about a strawman and misinterpreting what I said, you offered no response to the context and setting so clearly and vividly described by John himself.

  Notice how John always makes it very clear for us what he is seeing:

  Revelation 8:1 "And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."

  Easy.

  Setting: heaven.

  Revelation 11:1 "And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. "

  Easy.

  Setting: the temple

  Revelation 12:1 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2 and she was pregnant."

  Easy.

  Setting: heaven

  Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more"

  Easy.

  Setting: the new heaven and earth.

  Now Jwfacts will you please kindly answer this question for us: What is the setting of Revelation 7?
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  Vanderhoven7

  Considerable evidence points to the 144,000 and the Great Crowd as being the same group (the church) described from different perspectives (divine and human) and in two different settings, (pre-trib and post-trib).
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  rather be in hades

  i'm rather curious to see the response about tcovington and the walsh trial
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  Recovery

  If we apply this literally as you are by inference than where does that leave the gentiles?

  Just because some things in the vision are interpreted as literal, does not mean the entire vision has to be.

  People that are brought to heaven are brought from where? wait for it, wait for it...the earth, so of course the context is the earth when it's speaking of those who are being taken to heaven!

  You are not helping anyone's case. Your saying the setting is the earth. Well the vision describes the great crowd as coming out of the great tribulation and worshipping before the Lamb and in the Temple on the earth. You are proving my point.

  no one could count [not 144k?!?!], from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb [Funny it doesn't say they are on the earth does it?!?!].

  As you've already admitted for us, the setting is the earth. That is where everything is taking place. Now you are arguing that the scripture doesn't say they are on earth. Which is it?

  [So if some annointed have died post 1918 and been ressurected to heaven as the wt$ dogma would have you believe how is this criteria fullfilled?

  How is the criteria of the great crowd coming out of the tribulation fulfilled? I didn't think that needed an explanation.

  There is so many ways this text could be intepreted and spun to suit any religious dogma. Your assertions haven't proven a thing.

  Of course. I am well aware of many Biblical interpretations regarding Revelation and especially this chapter. However, obviously all can't be correct. And obviously, when we look at the facts, Jwfacts' cut and paste of Ray Franz rhetoric and JWN's regurgitated arguments can't be correct neither.

  So will Jwfacts answer the question: What is the setting of Revelation 7?
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  jwfacts

  I did answer it. The elders are in heaven (according the the Watchtower), so the scene does transfer to heaven. Do you bother to read what I write? That is why it is pointless discussing things with you.

  Now Jwfacts will you please kindly answer this question for us: What is the setting of Revelation 7?

  Easy.

  Setting: heaven and earth.
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  Vanderhoven7

  True, the WTS flip flop on the status of the great crowd is rather glaring...but it doesn't prove anything other than the fact that the society is man-directed at best.

  Ezekiel was given a vision of a great and marvelous temple. That vision of Ezekiel concerning the temple has been a mystery for ages and generations, but now is due to be understood. The Scriptures and the physical facts both show that this prophecy was not due to be understood by God's people on earth until the year 1932. ...This picture shows the position of the great multitude. Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the great multitude will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures."

  J. F. Rutherford, 2nd president Watchtower Bible & Tract Society

  (Vindication -book III p 204)

  "Jehovah never makes any mistakes. Where the student relies upon man, he is certain to be led into difficulties.

  J. F. Rutherford

  (Prophecy pp.67,68)

  - Were Jehovah's Witnesses relying on man?

  - Was the prophesy, that was not really understood until 1932,

  wrong in 1935? (This is when Rutherford changed his mind

  about the destiny of the "Great Crowd".)

  "Men not only contradict God, they contradict one another. How can they be reliable guides..." (Awake, Mar. 22,63)
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  Recovery

  Rather Be in hades I will offer the same advice to you. Some things in the Bible may be hard to understand or even seem irrational/impossible. But please brush up on Bible prophecy. You will not find a more accurate source than the WT Publications but since you don't seem to be a fan of the WT, simply research them yourself. I remember this quote by heart. "Bible prophecies.....are so innumerable so as to make accidental fulfillment almost impossible." Especially regarding Cyrus, Egypt, Assyria, Rome, Greece, Jerusalem on several occassions, and the United Nations/Nebuchadnezzar. Look at how many times critics ridiculed the Bible and said it was false and it proved them wrong. Look at how ahead of its time and how scientifically accurate the creation account is, going in the same basic order as scientists say.
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  tootired2care

  How is the criteria of the great crowd coming out of the tribulation fulfilled? I didn't think that needed an explanation.

  I don't see any distinction in that passage that says the great crowd is some place other than " standing before the throne and before the Lamb" where is the Lamb?

  Your saying the setting is the earth.

  No I'm not. What I asked is where are people brought to heaven from? The earth, so the account would logically involve both places, since the Lamb is not on the earth.