The Society debunked the rumored new light on the F&DS in 1973

by Leolaia 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Leolaia

  All they need to do next is shunt all of Revelation 12 into the great tribulation and say that the devil's ousting and 'short period of time' occurs during the great tribulation. They can then say that Jesus has only been 'present' since 1914 per Matt 24:3 as the Lord of Malachi 3:1 who suddenly 'came' to his temple (on behalf of YHWH) to carry out his inspection and appoint the FDS to feed his domestics in 1919, not as King of God's Kingdom. To support this all they need to do is cite Matthew 28:20 where Jesus said he would be spiritually 'with' or present with his disciples until the conclusion of then system of things in 70 AD. They can thus retain all of their authority and status over JW's despite uncoupling Jesus enthronment as King from 1914.
  
  They can uncouple Jesus' coming as King from 1914 while continuing to say that the last days began in 1914 and we have witnessed a 'composite sign' since then by simply pointing to Jesus illustration of falling leaves indicating summer is near. The wars, famines, plagues, etc, simply mean Jesus is near to coming as King, not that he is already present as King, which is of course the correct interpretation.

  That's brilliant, yaddayadda. That thought never occurred to me. Such a move could solve a few problems.

  The main problem with this, as I see it, is that 1914 is tightly linked with their interpretation of Daniel 4 and with 1914 as the terminus of a span of "Gentile Times". That has a direct link with both Revelation 12 and the notion of the last days starting in 1914 with the "composite sign" beginning at that date. The Society recently went all-out in defending the chronology underlying 1914, so I don't think they are going to give that up, and the justification for that chronology is their interpretation of Daniel 4, which relates the 2,520 years to both Gentile kingdoms (the Gentile Times) and God's kingdom (which replaces them). Ever since 1925, the Society has claimed that God's kingdom came into power in 1914 and that depends on both Daniel 4 and Revelation 12. Postponing the fulfillment of Revelation 12 to the Great Tribulation would remove the correspondence between the unbanding of the stump in Daniel 4 and the birth of the kingdom (and enthronement of Jesus) in Revelation 12. The casting of the Devil and his angels to the earth also gives a reason why "things are getting worse" as the composite sign began its fulfillment, starting first in 1914 with WWI. If the tree is unbanded in 1914 as the Gentile Times came to an end, then what is it that happened to God's kingdom in that year?

  Should the Society go down this path, I think it would be pretty easy to come up with some explanation for this. Maybe they could say that it takes time for the tree to regrow and first there was a little shoot and that was fulfilled in the tiny organization that God turned his attention to (never mind that it was founded long before 1914), which he chose in 1919 and nurtured it until it grew into a mighty multinational great crowd of Kingdom workers, and then when the time comes, Armageddon starts in heaven, Satan and his angels are removed from heaven, and then they persecute the organization on the earth with the Great Tribulation, and then Christ Jesus as King brings forth Armageddon on the earth to wipe out opposers to his earthly organization, and then uses it to institute his rule on earth in the Millennium. How does that sound?

  This would solve one potential problem: the non-correspondence between the Christ's thousand years of millennial rule, and his enthronement in 1914. The Millennium supposedly hasn't started yet, but Jesus has been ruling as King in heaven since 1914. If he has been King all this time, why hasn't the Millennium started yet? Your idea would then make the two coincide much more closely.
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  yadda yadda 2

  Yes, I have been wondering about that too Leolaia. They would of course still be left with the problem as you describe it.

  I think your suggestion for how to overcome it is very achievable.

  They could state that since Zedekiah was removed as King when the tree was large and expansive, likewise Jesus does not become King when the stump is first unbanded in 1914 but gets crowned once the tree has fully regrown. They could reference Isaiah 11:1 which refers to Jesus was the root/twig of Jesse and say how this twig/root echoes the stump of Daniel 4. Only when the tree is fully regrown with branches and leaves can all the creatures of the earth take refuge in it, per the illustration in Daniel 4, which is when Jesus as "someone like a son of man" becomes ruler over all peoples and nations and tongues on earth per Daniel 7.

  They could also make a parallel with the modern day re-growth of the stump from 1914 with the "stone that was not cut by human hands" in Daniel 2:5. As the stone grew into a mountain that later filled the whole earth, so likewise the stump that was unbanded in 1914 grows into a fully mature tree again. The stump represents the small organization that grows into all of the master's earthly "belongings" ready for his arrival in the great tribulation. Compare this to Isaiah 2:2-4 (and Micah 4:1) where the "mountain of Jehovah" is said to become established "In the last days" to which all peoples and nations would stream, preserving the Watchtower's cherished claim that the "last days" began in 1914. Continuing the tree theme, they could suggest that Jesus' parable about a fig tree with new branches appearing and putting forth leaves might indicate that a tree-like organization would 'blossom' and grow prior to Jesus coming as King. The Apostle Paul also compared Christians to branches of a tree.

  There are also other places in scripture besides Daniel 4 where nations/kingdoms are symbolised by trees, reinforcing the idea that the organization is like a "spiritual nation" that would grow over time.

  So, basically, they could reinterpret the secondary fulfillment of the "tree" of Daniel 4 to no longer mean the heavenly governmental kingdom, but rather the master's modern-day earthly "belongings" or household that Jesus inspected and formed in 1914-19 that would grow into a mighty spiritual nation, ie, the organization containing the domestics, now both the anointed and great crowd. This would preserve their entire 607BCE/2520 years chronology while shifting Jesus enthronement as king into the future. They could say that the spiritual nation was first formed in 33AD at Pentecost but this became apostate and overgrown with weeds after the death of the last apostle until 1919AD when it was released from spiritual bondage to Babylon the Great, ie, the tree stump was unbanded and began to grow again.

  Another contradiction such a reinterpretation would resolve is that the Watchtower admits that the "marriage of the bridegroom (144,000) and the Lamb" does not occur until the future, yet their current eschatology places the resurrection of most of the anointed around 1918 or so. This effectively means that the great majority of the 144,000 have been in heaven since 1918 but ruling over absolutely nothing nor can they marry the Lamb until the last of them is sealed and resurrected too. The new understanding we are are suggesting would solve this by shunting the resurrection of all the anointed into the future.

  This also fits better with Rev 7:1-4, where the four winds of the great tribulation are held back until "all our fellow slaves are sealed" - which logically happens when the faithful slaves that are living prior to or during the great tribulation have proved faithful until death. Clearly the Lamb and some of the 144k do not commence ruling as King in heaven many decades (currently 98 years) before thousands of fellow co-rulers are yet to be resurrected and crowned, and obviously all of them have to be sealed and in heaven before the marriage of the Lamb can take place, so all these events must occur together and be in the future.

  Shifting Jesus' return as King from 1914 to the great tribulation also fits with Jesus' description of his return as "sudden" and "unexpected" and his arrival as bridegroom and return as master of the household as unexpected, which would reveal many virgins and slaves as unprepared or unfaithful. The current Watchtower understanding suggests that the groom arrived in 1914-19 and has his marriage feast after kicking out the rejected virgins, but that since then many thousands of anointed JW's have been continuing to get invitations to come to the marriage feast after the doors were locked.

  As you also noted Leolaia, this new understanding would also require de-linking the "gentile times" from 607BC. They could achieve that by spiritualising the meaning of "gentile times" to mean the same as the trampling of spiritual Israelites and that this began when the Roman's sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the physical temple in 70 AD, and ends with the sealing of the 144,000 and marriage of the Lamb at the end of the great tribulation. This would make better sense of Jesus' words in Luke 21:24 which clearly have no retrospective link back to 607 BC. Or they could simply reduce the "gentile times" to being the period of 3.5 times/years when the Watchtower organisation was 'tested' between October 1914 and 1918/19, culminating in the imprisonment of senior Watchtower staff. They currently hold a similar view already. Or they could shunt the gentile times into the great tribulation and suggest the great tribulation may be for a period of 1260 days (3 ½ times).

  This new understanding would also resolve the glaring contradiction that you pointed out, Leolaia, that Jesus is said to have begun ruling as king in 1914 and that the Kingdom was established in that year, and yet the 1,000 year reign has not started yet. It would also harmonise with Jesus' statement that "no one knows the day or the hour" when he comes as King, which the Society has always said occurred in 1914. Both these contradictions are knockdown arguments against the Society's current position that Jesus became King of God's Kingdom in 1914.

  Yadda
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  Leolaia

  Hey GB, maybe you should check out some of these ideas....it's potentially the W AVE OF THE F UTURE ™ . You don't even have to credit us.

  ...in order to make this alleged new light even begin to work, the second highlighted paragraph in the opening post will now need to start with "Yes!" The master's going away will now have to be interpreted as the period between 1919 and whenever it is he returns.

  mostlydead....Yeah, totally. And here is something I'm most interested to know....what in the world is the Society going to do with the Parable of the Talents? That was always interpreted in parallel with the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant. In both the master goes away, and it is in the Parable of Talents where it is said that the Master went away a "long while", which the Society has readily interpreted as the duration of time between 33 C.E. and 1914. Even if they choose to ignore the going away of the Master in the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant (as it is more presupposed than explicitly stated), there is no way they could ignore it in the other parable. They either would have to adopt a new interpretation for that parable as well, or they would have to ignore the bleedingly obvious parallelism between the two parables.
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  Leolaia

  So I'm checking out the report posted earlier today online about the Annual Meeting. I just have to comment on some of these points....

  F&DS come into existence after 1914. Wheat and Weeds parable indicates be no slave class to dispense food (only be individual anointed ones who maintained their faith).

  Mixing metaphors is one thing, but mixing parables? There is no analogous role for dispensing food (to wheat?) in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. So apparently this parable is taken to refer to the situation prior to 1914 when there were only individual anointed without a F&DS. Problem: The Wheat and Tares parable continues to the eschaton, i.e. the coming of the Son of Man in judgment (which the Society assimilates to their view of Armageddon). The Society agrees with having the parable's narrative terminate with Armageddon: "The fiery furnace of the illustration in which the weeds were destroyed finds its fulfillment in the coming battle of Armageddon. At that time the large crop of weeds that Christendom has produced under her unscriptural clergy and laity system will be consumed in the fiery destruction of God’s wrath. Satan’s entire earthly system of things will be consumed at that time" (1 October 1960 Watchtower, p. 607). If the Society is making the point that the parable "indicates no slave class to dispense food", then this would logically apply to the entire period before Armageddon.

  The work of Russell & associates like that of the messenger in Mal3:1. But they not part of slave class. Old thought of messenger was 1914-­18 based on JC cleaning temple 3 yrs after his anointing. However the bible lists 2 accounts of JC cleansing – one at the start and one at the end of his ministry. Hence the cleansing of God’s people is ongoing.

  Wow, that's pretty cool. A contradiction between the Fourth Gospel and the synoptics (no gospel has two accounts, the Fourth Gospel is missing a cleansing prior to Jesus' arrest, the synoptics are missing a cleansing earlier in the ministry, the accounts are otherwise the same, and it is unlikely the authorities needed to search for an excuse to arrest Jesus if the first cleaning had occurred) is here used to justify the new interpretation of the Faithful and Wise Servant Parable.

  And this idea of a second cleansing of God's organization at the Great Tribulation again raises the specter of potential disloyalty by the GB. They claim to be the F&DS, and the new interpretation treats it as a basic fact ("the F&DS was appointed in 1919"), but it is only on the Master's arrival that a determination is made as to whether the slave is faithful or wicked. The old interpretation had that as a done-deal; the inspection was already done, the anointed remnant was chosen and was appointed over all the Lord's belongings, it is the faithful slave. The new interpretation makes (if we at all follow the logic of the parable) the identification of the GB with the F&DS contingent on its conduct in the future at the time the Lord returns in judgment. The whole point of the parable is that the slave the Master appoints could either be faithful or it could be wicked. IT COULD BE EITHER!!!

  Mt 24:30,42,44 all refer to JC’s future ‘coming’ in judgment at the GT. Therefore the next verses that refer to the appointment of the F&DS is at – 1919 not 33ce!

  The only focus here is on the Master's arrival, and yes the Master arrives in judgment after the slave had been appointed for a good while to take care of the household. So when was the slave appointed? Not when the Master was away. It was the Master himself who put the slave in charge. Thus it happened when the Master left the household; that is why the slave is in charge....the slave takes over responsibilities while the Master is away. So when did the Master go away? Nowhere in any of the two detailed reports I have seen on the new light it is ever discussed when the Master went away (this was the advantage of 33 CE, which was when Jesus went to heaven). It is curious that this is just sidestepped since it was an important feature in the old interpretation that noted the obvious parallel with the Parable of the Talents and also the Parable of the House Servants in the same position in the Olivet discourse in Mark: " It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back " (13:34-35). The feeding of the household by the servant occurs while the Master is away. It is therefore very odd to time the appointment of the slave at the very time when the Master becomes present (after 1914) and comes to his temple (after 1918), when the Master is supposed to be going AWAY. The Master is coming at the same time he is leaving....coming at the same time as leaving....the only thing similar that comes to mind is SS-433.
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  AnnOMaly

  Quick thought. Had been wondering how this all affected the 'coming to inspect the temple' idea in 1918. *Ting* - of course! Now they're somehow working in TWO temple inspections. From Ultimate Reality's AGM notes thread:

  "Old thought of messenger was 1914-18 based on jC cleaning temple 3 yrs after his anointing. However the bible lists 2 accounts of jC cleansing - one at the start and one at the end of his ministry. Hence the cleansing of God's people is ongoing. Mt 24:30,42,44 all refer to je's future 'coming' in judgment at the GT. Therefore the next verses that refer to the appointment of the F&DS is at - 1919 not 33ce!"

  I can't see how it can be concluded that 2 isolated instances, three years apart, of Jesus cleansing the temple is parallel to God's people continually being cleansed over a period of 90 (and counting) years, but hey, we have 2 overlapping generations equalling one generation spanning over a century, so I guess anything's possible.
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  AnnOMaly

  LOL. Posting at the same time. Snap!
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  Leolaia

  Great minds think alike. :) (And that's by using our brains, rather than thinking alike because an authority says so)
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  Listener

  The report posted today about the meeting fills in a few gaps regarding their explanations. One that I was wondering about was how they justify distinguishing themselves from the rest of the anointed.

  It would appear that the GB now consider themselves to be the Priestly Class that existed within Ancient Israel.

  Those within priestly class would prove to dispense food. Not all anointed are F&DS.
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  Listener

  If they change the date of Christ's return they will be proving themselves to be false prophets

  Matthew 24:23-25

  23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
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  Room 215

  Why does all of this call to mind the struggles of the mastodons, saber-toothed tigers, or whatever, struggling to extricates themselves from the La Brea Tar Pits only to sink deeper into the morass?