Why aren't you an Atheist?

by Bloody Hotdogs! 697 Replies latest jw friends

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    in fact, that's a critical SKILL to develop, as you don't read EVERY LAST WORD of any study

    ...or read ANY fact of the study. JWs have perfected the skill of being able to read ABOUT something and make a snap judgement even though they haven't read ANY word of what was written. Maybe you learned this critical skill from the WT? The fact is, you read NONE of the book. You didn't read just SOME of it. You read absolutely NONE. But you made a decision that wrote it completely off, to the point that at the end of your post you said, "Next!", as if that was the final word. Kids do not believe in God until they are taught.

    It's just interesting that you boast about your intelligence and your alleged qualifications (while looking at your beautiful doctorate), and yet it doesn't come through on your posts. All I hear is "You're delusional" "You obviously can't put the dots together" and the such.

    You also said: All the flowery poetic writing in the book is simply filler for people like you

    How would you know what the "flowery poetic writing in the book" is? YOU DIDN'T READ ANY OF IT!!! Hilarious!

    Going back to CoC, I could show you a hundred reviews about CoC that would make it sound like a lying, manipulative book that was written in anger. That doesn't change the facts. And to actually say that you know what the claims are because of wikipedia? Really?

    You also say it was written for people like me. Interesting that you don't know anything about me other than my arguments here. You might want to go back and read what I wrote about stereotypes.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    This is sooo fun! I love it when people get pissy while trying to maintain a veneer of civility.

    King Solomon. You presented this information: " This new species of mosquito appeared within the past 100 years. " Appeared? What does that prove? You cannot prove that this particular misquito was not witnessed by someone 101 years ago, or 300 years ago, or 1000 years ago. Just because it has recently been documented does not mean it evolved from another type of insect does it? That article says the belive it to be an adaptation of another variety. That is one reason I asked what some believe evolution means. It seems to me there is some disagreement among people as to what evolution is. Is it a blob became a cell and that became a fish and that became a mammal and that became a dolphin? Or is it that there were different kinds of creatures that appeared together ( perhaps much more simple versions of what we see today) and then those kinds slowly adapted over time?

    New Chapter. No need to get pissy. If you remember correctly I asked what was meant by evolution? Some have a different idea of what it means. As for the Big Bang, don't scientists believe that it was the basic start of our universe as we know it? So it is related to the start of life. Still, leave that out if you want. Slow adaptation over time, and evolution...how do you distinguish them? That is another reason I asked what some believe evolution is. I certainly don't believe in life from lifelessness with no intelligent design. That is my belief, I can't prove it. But you can't prove that one creature evolved into a totally different creature, the fossil record does not PROVE that. Can PROVE a hoofed mammal swam into the sea millions of years ago and became a dolphin? No you can't. You can say, " Dolphins are here so I must be right.". Creationist say the same thing. Outlaw is right. It takes faith for either belief because there are so many unknowns.

    Cofty, to be completely honest I have never read 1 book about evolution written by a Evolutionary Scientists. Nice misdirection/ad hominem attack though. You don't think what I posted about speculative evolution is true, do you? Also, can you PROVE a hoofed mammal became a dolphin? No, you cannot. You felt threatened when you faith was attacked, just like New Chapter. Science is YOUR RELIGION, and you don't like someone attacking it ( your perception perhaps). The point is that evolution or creation cannot be proven. Churchgoers say ," The bible says it so I believe it", You say, " Science says it so I believe it ". Both views are constantly changing, and neither side can PROVE anything. I personally FEEL that intelligent design makes more sense than life appearing with absolutely no help, just by chance. Still, I cannot PROVE it.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    That is actually completely wrong. Go and ask a physicist. There is no way to determine absolute motion.
    You could not prove that it was you that was moving as opposed to the ground. It is the basis of relativity......Jamesmahon

    I don`t have a Physicist handy at the moment..

    I usually keep a few around on the mountain here..

    But I digress..

    So let me get this straight..

    I`m in a plane,I`m in the air..But..

    The plane might be parked at the moment..And..

    It`s the earth thats moving..

    ?..

    .............................. ...OUTLAW

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    That's not exactly fair, C.A.

    For instance, I don't have to read every book on Intelligent Design to argue the concepts. I understand what ID claims, and no matter how it is reworked, it will be the same. If a new idea pops up, I can simply educate myself through google or other means on that point---no need to read the entire book.

    I have to write several research papers a year, and some require I use up to 6 solid resources (as unbiased as possible). I use a lot of books. I can't read 6 books for every paper, and instead, I have learned other skills. The index is a great place to start. Another trick is to read the first and last sentence of each paragraph to get the gist, and if I find they are focusing more directely on the information I'm looking for, then I start to read more thoroughly. These are legitimate ways to do research, and rarely are people faulted for it. In fact, it is encouraged in college.

    Books are full of extra words, and if it is information you are looking for, this can be time consuming and wasteful. When I read my text books, I keep a pencil with me and when I get to a paragraph that is nothing but fluff, I simply draw a line through it to make sure I don't mistake it for something I need to read again.

    I have not read Crisis of Conscience cover to cover either. Portions of it, but not all of it. It is full of fluff and opinion, even emotions, that I'm not looking for. I'm looking for the facts. That doesn't mean that I don't know what is in it, it just means I'm not interested in Franz's personal practice when it comes to oral sex, but more interested in how the Org is handling the issue.

    Reading every book cover to cover is tiresome if it is a subject you are well versed on. There is a great deal of repetion and nothing new to be learned.

    So maybe KS knows about the book through other avenues, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what's in there.

    Just something to think about.

  • tec
    tec

    I find the evidence for god to be paltry. I think there are many very compelling reasons to conclude no god exits.
    No faith involved.

    I find the evidence for God to be substantial. I think there are many very compelling reasons to conclude God exists.

    Cofty, would you tell me that there is no faith involved in my 'conclusions'?

    ALL the references in the Bible to God reading (and weighing) the hearts of man or the toughts in the hearts are LITERAL BELIEFS, based on ancient incorrect beliefs of the Egyptians (who were considered the experts of medicine in 1,000 BC, based on their advanced work with mummies, etc). The influence of wrong beliefs found in the Bible are unmistakeable.

    All things such as that do, Sol, is provide evidence that these ideas about God were wrong. That people were lacking knowledge of their physical world, and so also lacking knowledge of their spiritual world.

    People know a bit more now, and so grow in their belief. Remember, just a couple of posts earlier you said this:

    In essence, faith based on knowledge MUST be a continuous-process improvement process, whereas relgious faith is STAGNANT, and free from challenge.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    So let me get this straight..

    I`m in a plane,I`m in the air..But..

    The plane might be parked at the moment..And..

    It`s the earth thats moving..

    Something like that: pilots are aware of the problem of experiencing a loss of situational awareness under IFR conditions (eg cloudy/night, etc), when they experience a disconnect between what their their proprioreceptors (inner ear) are telling them vs what their instruments say (can occur with groundspeed, orientation). Many pilots have died as a result of the disconnect between what their instruments are telling them and what their eyes/ears are telling them (and it's usually IFR illusion that kills them, not bad instruments).

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    Cofty, to be completely honest I have never read 1 book about evolution written by a Evolutionary Scientists.

    If you did then you would know that the evidence for evolution has very, very little to do with the fossil record. However, the fossil record still fully supports the order of cell, to multicellular, to 'blob' to vertebrates to...the life we see today. Creation without evolution is not evidenced by the fossil record unless you interpret the fossil evidence as a god continually creating organisms, destroying them, then creating ones that are similar to the ones destroyed. Not more 'complex' or 'better' in some human centric way but simply 'different'.

    Please read some books that present the evidence on evolution. You might disagree with the conclusions but at least you will be doing that from a position of knowledge of the facts.

  • Tylinbrando
    Tylinbrando

    One pilot believed it would be impossible to take off from a moving conveyor belt.... he was wrong and surprised. Myth-busters. Crazy pilots.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    New Chapter. No need to get pissy. If you remember correctly I asked what was meant by evolution? Some have a different idea of what it means. As for the Big Bang, don't scientists believe that it was the basic start of our universe as we know it? So it is related to the start of life. Still, leave that out if you want. Slow adaptation over time, and evolution...how do you distinguish them?That is another reason I asked what some believe evolution is.I certainly don't believe in life from lifelessness with no intelligent design. That is my belief, I can't prove it.But you can't prove that one creature evolved into a totally different creature, the fossil record does not PROVE that. Can PROVE a hoofed mammal swam into the sea millions of years ago and became a dolphin? No you can't. You can say, " Dolphins are here so I must be right.". Creationist say the same thing. Outlaw is right. It takes faith for either belief because there are so many unknowns.

    The above is my demonstration to C.A. on how some of us can take in information without cluttering our thoughts. Just the gist---the rest is fluff.

    Now to answer it.

    Data, you keep suggesting that slow adaptation is something different than evolution, when it is actually a part of evolution. Which is why I don't think you fully understand your argument. So since you have asked the question again, I'm going to start from the beginning and save you the research.

    Natural selection acts on populations, picking and choosing individuals that are better able to negotiate an environment. There are 3 necessary factors for natural selection to take place.

    1. Variation of Trait. (this could be neck length, snout shape, digestive enzymes, mutations---whatever. A variation)

    2. The trait must be inherited. (genetic. If an individual suffers an amputation, even if it is advantageous for some reason, they cannot pass it on to offspring. That's Lamarck's reasoning and has been falsified. A parent can stretch their necks all they want, and maybe achieve some adaptation for THEM, but they don't pass longer necks on to their offspring.)

    3. The variation must affect Differential Fitness. (This is a measure of reproductive success. Reproductive success is the ability to produce offspring that themselves are able to go on and produce offspring. If the trait makes the individual less fit, they will have less reproductive success, and their numbers will dwindle. If the trait make them more fit, they will have more offspring, who will have more offspring, and their numbers will increase)

    Now imagine a population of reptiles. Some in the group have longer necks, but all within a spectrum. But the longer necks can reach higher for food on bushes. So more food is available to them. As long as low lying food is available in abundance, this may have no effect in fitness. But if something happens, and low food becomes scarce, the longer necks may be able to migrate to sources of higher food, but the short necks will not be able to follow. If the environment changes, and the low hanging food becomes nonexistent, the short necks may even die out. Or they just may become separated from the long necks who migrate where they can't go. Natural selection will continue to favor the long necks in the new group, and the genetic flow between the short necks and long necks diminishes. If you add a barrier of sorts, perhaps a flood changes the region and separates the long necks from the short necks, then you will have genetic drift. No more transfer of genes between short necks and long necks. The barrier can be anything--including a major migration to food sources. Eventually, those two group will become genetically so different, they cannot interbreed. This is speciation. It's not dog to bird, but dog with a longer neck--- and it's not about frisbees and cars, but about getting more food. As more time passes, more variations will become advantageous, and after a time, the first and second group no longer even resemble each other.

    The fossil record. I think you are looking for a 'missing link' which is a bad name. Think in terms of transitional species. There is not one link, but a series of changes over a time period---more gradual. This may not be immediately evident in the fossil record. If you find a fossil at the beginning of the spectrum, and a fossil from the middle, and a fossil at a later end, it may not be evident immediately that they are related or there was a chain between them. We are not going to find every fossil representing every gradual change between 2 species. HOWEVER, we HAVE found quite a few transitional fossils. Fossils that have traits of fish and amphibians---google it. They are turning up all the time, especially recently. Sometimes we just have to know what to look for, and where we would logically find it, to fully understand context. But it's there.

    And finally, read some about gentics. We are able to trace what we can't always see. It's very cool. You should check it all out. But call it pissy if you like, your post betrays a misunderstanding of Evolution, which makes discussion very difficult with you. I feel I need to educate before I can even challenge. Read a science book---a real one---and then you will be better prepared to have this debate.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    When someone uses the word "indicate" with no proof to back it up..OUTLAW

    Well, that's PROOF you're not serious: I provided you with a definition (which is easy enough to google), but you ignore it. KS..

    There must be a Sale on Strawman Arguements where you live..LOL!!..

    Heres your definition:

    Definition of indicate:

      Point out; show: "dotted lines indicate the margins".

    To point out;Show:

    The fact is you have no proof..If theres nothing there,what would you show me?

    Dotted lines indicate margines:

    I can see dotted lines..You still can`t provide proof that God does not exist..

    Your analogys and strawmen aren`t cutting it..

    Neither Athiests or Believers can prove anything..

    They both expect people to have faith in something neither of them can prove..

    And..

    They are willing to go to great length`s to argue about it with each other..

    Neither side would be arguing,if they didn`t have Faith in their Beliefs..

    ............................ ...OUTLAW

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