Shunning is the big story

by joelbear 76 Replies latest jw friends

  • LDH
    LDH

    Mav says:

    discipline has lead me to stop serious sinning
    THIS, my friend, is why you need religion IN A NUTSHELL.

    You have never grown past the stage of being a spiritual baby, you have to have consequences for all of your acts. Are you three years old? Do you have a hard-on for the guilt thing???

    Get a grip.

    MATURE and LOVING human beings desist from 'sinning' when it causes harm to other human beings, not *because they get disciplined*.

    [8>] No wonder you are a JW. You like being punished for your sins, it relieves some of that guilt.

    Lisa

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Lisa,

    Succinctly put.

    Bravo.

    hugs

    Joel

  • discuss
    discuss
    MATURE and LOVING human beings desist from 'sinning' when it causes harm to other human beings, not *because they get disciplined*.

    actually this in incorrect, for example take the
    example of many who have been df'd and reinstated for fornication.

    Would they have stopped had they not been disciplined?

  • LDH
    LDH

    NYTELECOMDiscuss,

    Would they have stopped had they not been disciplined?
    Like I said, the JW system is PERFECT for babies. Daddy's going to be home soon, and then he'll spank you.

    Ask yourself the other question.

    Wouldn't it be better to refrain from adultery because it dishonors a commitment you made??? Not because *You're gona get it when Daddy gets home.

    MATURE and THINKING human beings have their actions controlled by their concern for the well-being of their fellowman, not because they're gonna get punished.

    Why the #*%& would Jehovah want people worshipping him anyway that have to be treated like toddlers?

    "Take a 10 minute time out for punching your brother." All this teaches is a defunct system of punishment/reward behavior. It doesn't teach that:

    Punching your brother hurts *him!* We don't hurt the people we love!

    Period.

    Lisa

  • dubla
    dubla
    strike]NYTELECOM[/strike]Discuss,

    i was thinking the exact same thing lisa, but didnt come out and say it. the writing style is a bit familiar, isnt it?

    aa

  • JBean
    JBean

    Interesting thread... I've really enjoyed Mav's comments here. Note to Discuss: I think DFing only teaches folks to be more careful not to get caught the next go-round! Seriously... if someone is going to commit adultury or fornicate, they're NOT going to stop for any length of time just because of DFing. As LDH said, they won't do it out of love and commitment... not because they'll get punished. People get reinstated all the time and yet they really haven't "learned" anything.

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    JBean,

    My point exactly.

    Yes shunning creates behavior, but not the kind the Watchtower Society says that it creates.

    Shunning creates lying, extortion, reviling in the form of gossip and a number of other forms of unkindness. Rarely do people say, let me see now, I think I won't be a homosexual or won't sleep with my boyfriend/girlfriend or stop any other behavior because of fear of disfellowshipping.

    The only firm foundation for a set of moral behavior is a set of moral beliefs that one accepts for one's life. This is established between an individual human, their own conscience and whatever higher power they have faith in (even if this higher power is simply "the greater good" of humanity or society. These moral beliefs are what truly shape long term behavior, not shunning, judicial committees or magazine articles harping on the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases, lung cancer, etc. etc. etc.

    Moral power comes from God and morality is therefore a personal issue between God and each individual. Shunning is an unneeded and destructive intervention into an authority that belongs to God alone, that of judgement.

    I have a very high set of ethics that center around honesty and kindness. I am not perfect and clearly have displayed unkindness at times, even here on this board. When I do this I consistently apologize for my behavior and ask for forgiveness from the person I have been unkind to and from God. I hold to this set of ethics because I believe in them as firm moral concepts, not because of the fear of shunning, eternal death or eternal torment. I hold to them because of the value I place in the moral concepts themselves.

    Peace

    Joel

  • discuss
    discuss

    LDH

    b]Wouldn't it be better to refrain from adultery because it dishonors a commitment you made??? [/b] Not because *You're gona get it when Daddy gets home.
    You are correct. And that is why Jehovahs Witnesses teach that
    you must first love Jehovah, than you will not want to sin. The
    idea of refraining from sin in fear of punishment does not work.
    That is why the teaching of Hell does not stop sin. In fact
    as a former Jehovahs Witness, (I am assuming you were), you have
    knowledge of our beliefs regarding serving Jehovah. We serve
    him first out of love. Not fear. If fear were our primary motive
    it would be selfish. Are you saying Jehovah never uses discipline?

    I think we have established that I am not Mav.
    Do we need to establish that I am not NYTELECOM.

    I have been lurking here for awhile.

    am I to be Fred next?

  • MavMan
    MavMan

    Lisa, in a perfect world you would be right. The problem is that this is not a perfect world. A wrongdoer is disfellowshipped because the congregation needs to be cleansed in the eyes of Jehovah. It is not a "time out" as if saying, o.k. you are disfellowshipped for 6 months and then you come back. No, the person must be repentant and must have turned from his sinning path.

    I have not decided to clean up my life because I was disfellowshipped, but because I love Jehovah and I want to please him. But how did I realize this? Because the disfellowshipping was such a shock to me that it made realize what is more important.

    Shunning creates lying, extortion, reviling in the form of gossip and a number of other forms of unkindness.
    Joel, you can't honestly say this about every case. I'm sure it happens in some congregations. But overall it does not. Have you not been present where a disfellowshipped person is reinstated? Brothers and sisters hugging, crying with joy.

    Moral power comes from God and morality is therefore a personal issue between God and each individual.
    This is true and most Witnesses will agree with you. But, what about when it involves the congregation? There are many examples in the Bible where the actions of one individual would affect the whole nation of Israel. The congregation must deal severely with those that are unrepentant and do not abandon their sinful ways.

    I have a very high set of ethics that center around honesty and kindness.
    And you are to be commended for this. You are very kinds in your posts on this board. I know you are making an effort to be accepted by Jehovah. But we can not just excuse ourselves and ignore his laws.
  • dubla
    dubla
    am I to be Fred next?

    nah, your writing level is at least a grade or two ahead of freds....no chance.

    aa

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