Would doubting Thomas be an atheist today? (page 2)

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But Tammy, why did Thomas still refuse to believe even though he had the eyewitness testimony of his fellow trusted apostles? Thomas demanded extra-ordinary evidence for the extra-ordinary claim of Jesus' resurrection, yet he knew and trusted his apostles and had no reason to think they were lying. And, as you note, he had earlier witnessed Jesus numerous miracles including possibly seeing Jesus resurrect others.

Jesus did not condemn Thomas for his lack of faith in those circumstances, but he willingly gave Thomas the evidence he reasonably requested, so why would it be any different for us today. Don't we have even more reason to be skeptical today with so much time having passed, and with the extant copies of the gospel manuscripts not even being a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the originals, with even the originals being written 40-60 years after Jesus' death?

How could anyone today be condemned by Jesus for refusing to believe, just as Thomas refused to believe, in the absence of hard, physical proof?

smiddy

If he used his God given brain he would ......?

smiddy

still thinking

He needed proof...whats to discuss. Jesus gave him proof but no one else. Jesus is biased about who he gives proof to. The rules have changed but thats nothing new. They change all the time when it comes to belief. Next century they're be another set of rules, the century after, another and so on. Faith and belief is morphing into something so new they might need to write a new bible.

tec

Jesus did not condemn Thomas for his lack of faith in those circumstances, but he willingly gave Thomas the evidence he reasonably requested, so why would it be any different for us today.

I said already. Thomas had already proven himself, he had already dropped everything to follow Christ and his teachings, he had stood by him and put his faith in him. He did not believe this one thing; but He DID believe Christ.

So there is a difference.

Don't we have even more reason to be skeptical today with so much time having passed, and with the extant copies of the gospel manuscripts not even being a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the originals, with even the originals being written 40-60 years after Jesus' death? How could anyone today be condemned by Jesus for refusing to believe, just as Thomas refused to believe, in the absence of hard, physical proof?

Sure.

But one who follows Christ and His teachings, who puts their faith in Him out of love and out of recognizing truth in His teachings, does have their faith answered. Not in the same way as Thomas, but still answered.

(And if you love him, as Thomas loved Christ, then you will follow his teachings - at least as best as you can -... and then he and his father will come to you, through the Spirit.)

Thomas refused to believe in an aspect about Christ. He DID believe in Christ.

Peace,

tammy

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Tammy, Thomas refused to believe in the one biggest single thing about Christ, his resurrection. We can only conclude that if Jesus did not physically appear to Thomas and let Thomas put his fingers in his wounds that Thomas would never have believed in the resurrection and may have walked away from Christianity.

Phizzy

Tammy has not answered the point about why people should not expect the same treatment from Jesus today.

O.K, so it may be a pre-requisite that ther exists in the person a belief in Jesus, but why does he not build the faith of suchlike ones by giving proof of his resurrection ?

tec

Tammy, Thomas refused to believe in the one biggest single thing about Christ, his resurrection. We can only conclude that if Jesus did not physically appear to Thomas and let Thomas put his fingers in his wounds that Thomas would never have believed in the resurrection

and may have walked away from Christianity.

I don't think we can conclude that, but maybe.

But Christ had not yet returned to His Father at this time. He appeared to many people, and not just Thomas. But He had praise for those who would believe even though they did not see him physically, but rather learned to hear in spirit, and listen to the spirit. In any case, perhaps Thomas having believed in Him, walked with Him, gone through trials with Him, given everything up to follow Him... perhaps that is why Christ came and showed Him. Which is what I have been trying to say.

The same promise is here today. "If you love me, you will obey my teachings, and my father will love you, and we will come and make our home with you." Love and listen to Him, He does and will come in Spirit. Not the same as sight/proof as Thomas had... but then, Christ is not here in the flesh at the moment. He IS here in spirit.

So my answer to Phizzy is that he does build the faith of such ones. Just not with the physical senses, because He is spirit.

Peace,

tammy

Phizzy

So, Jesus was not a spirit before he returned to the Father ?

tec

He was in the flesh... which he could transcend (put on and take off the flesh) when he did return to God.

(I have to rush out to work. I have a thread on that though, which i'll try and find quick... otherwise, i'll talk with you later :) )

Peace,

tammy

James Brown

I think a skeptic/atheist with a well thought out reason to doubt, not believe is more spiritually/ God concerned than the multitudes who just dont care one way or the other.,

Would doubting Thomas be an atheist today?

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