Interesting question... I'm not sure if he'd be an atheist, but I guarantee he'd find himself in a judicial committee for doubting.
Would doubting Thomas be an atheist today?
by yadda yadda 2 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
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tec
For Phizzy, just in case you wanted to look at it. Otherwise, feel free to ignore :)
Peace,
tammy
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vanyell
Thomas a cynical agnostic.... just think about this. Here is a person who claims to be the Son of God of Israel, died on the hands of the Roman conqueror. Why would any sane person believe the aforementioned claims??? That is until jesus PHYSICALLY showed the evidence that he rose again to Thomas. For me, I'm that kind of person. Show me concrete proof, what my eyes can see, and my hands can touch... Doubting Thomas...
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garyneal
Isn't that especially also the case since God took no action to prevent numerous religious "artfully contrived stories" and other claimed holy scriptures to be invented with their millions of adherents?
I've wondered about that a lot lately. For me, it would seem that if the whole doctrines of Christianity are so concrete, why so many different teachings based on it? Why are new religions emerging all the time and why does it seem like we are always reaching out to the 'lost' especially in areas of the world where Christianity dominates? I never understood, for example, why missionaries from the U.S. are sent to places like Europe. Didn't Christianity spread to the North and South American continents from Europe? It is as if, our brand of Christianity is better than their's even though ours originated from them.
No, believers will say you have all the proof you need but refuse to see/hear it. The burden has shifted.
Doubting Thomas was shown the evidence and then he believed but Jesus called the ones who did not see but still believed blessed. That verse (John 20:29) would be immediately referenced by believers posing these questions. That, along with the things Tammy is saying.
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transhuman68
Doubting is never recommended in the Gospels; and Elaine Pagels believes that this account is an attempt by the writer of the Gospel of John to discredit Thomas, and to ridicule those who believed the Gospel of Thomas- (an apocryphal Gospel believed to have been in existence in the 2nd century). Since this story is contradicted by Luke’s version- Luke 24:33 where it states that there were eleven apostles present- (minus Judas, of course) this could be correct.
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clear
He would be maybe because there is a scipture that says if you do not believe in jesus, you won't be saved.
But on the other hand, Thomas was very blessed by being the only apostle invited by Jesus to put his finger into the holes in Jesus hands. What a blessing. What a gift for from Jesus, he was not shunned by Jesus for being a doubter but he was warmly welcomed.
I have used this argument with many witnesses.
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Phizzy
But would Jesus appear to Thomas today and give physical evidence that he is real ?
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Searril
John 20
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. 8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) 10 Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.
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24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus [ a ] ), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe [ b ] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
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Notice verse 2....they took the Lord's body and we don't know what they did with him.
Verse 9...they still didn't fully understand the sacrifice and resurrection.
It's important to remember we have the written gospel accounts to reflect on and get a clearer picture. Those living at that time didn't have this advantage of being able to sit back and try to see the whole picture. How many times did Jesus have to repeatedly tell his associates that he would be killed? They had trouble based on their own expectations of what the Messiah was going to be like.
I don't see anything that gives me the idea that Thomas didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God or that God has the power to raise from the dead. Given verse 2 (and that we know others wanted the body of Jesus guarded due to the fear that people would steal it away to make it look like he wasn't dead), I find it more likely that Thomas wanted to make sure it really was Jesus and not someone attempting to impersonate him for self glorification.
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yadda yadda 2
Searril, what was it that Thomas would not "believe" as Jesus put it? It was the fact Jesus had come back to life, had been resurrected. Sure, Thomas no doubt believed Jesus was the Messiah and must have heard the eyewitness testimony of the other apostles or even himself seen resurrections that Jesus had performed on others, but they did not expect the Messiah to die, it was a shock to them and they were confused, even though Jesus did as much say he was going to be put to death. In all this confusion, and with perhaps hysterical and conflicting reports from those who had seen him outside the tomb and on the road, it was the fact of Jesus' actual resurrection that Thomas could not believe until he had indisputable proof. He saw the spear go into Jesus' side and nails hammered into Jesus on the cross, and knowing the possibility of the body having been stolen, this was the only clear way he could be sure amongst all the confusion and hysteria.
Thomas was being quite rational and sensible. The point of this thread is that it is similarly quite rational and sensible today, millennia removed from the events, for persons to be even more doubtful and dismissive. Even more so since God has withheld any more miracles occuring since the death of the last apostle. Why God has done no faith-affirming indisputable miracles since then remains a mystery but Christians give us reasons such as "Jesus resurrection was the biggest miracle and proof of them all so no more miracles should be needed" and "the bible is packed full of miracles so God shouldn't need to keep repeating them down through time." What you make of those reasons/excuses for God being so utterly hidden since the first century is up to you, but it seems to me that Jesus should provide this indisputable evidence before anyone is adversely judged or condemned. It would be immoral and unfair for God/Jesus to kill anyone for lacking faith in what is written in ancient gospels and epistles, especially when we do not have the originals, and the originals themselves were written decades after the events.
I think its obvious that Thomas would at least be a skeptic or agnostic today. The onus is really on Jesus to provide evidence to the world again in the form of his miraculous and visible and indisputable return, before there can be any moral justification for judging and killing any modern day disbelievers.
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yadda yadda 2
ps - C T Russell more or less preached what I am saying here. He taught that no one is eternally destroyed at Armageddon and tat all the judging occurs during the thousand year reign, not before it.