I scorn believers just like I scorn people who believe in lizard people and that aliens are abducting hillbillies. Especially when they try to get their ridiculous beliefs to govern the way everyone should live their lives. I do not have a problem with Buddhists. There are Buddhists that are atheists.
Why are atheists so intent on scorning "believers"?
by Chariklo 553 Replies latest jw friends
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ziddina
"In the meantime, I don't put people into groups. That was the whole point of my thread. I dislike groups. ..." Chariklo, page 7, post #2073
"Until recently, I had never encountered this word "believers" used as it is being used on this board, to describe pejoratively a group of people.
It's not clear to me whether they scorn all who have a faith of some sort. ... First of all, they illogically and conveniently forget that they, too, are "believers". They passionately believe that there is no god. If they didn't believe it, if they are merely unsure, then they are not atheists but agnostics. Therefore, atheists too are believers." Chariklo, page 1, post #2064
"There was very definite purpose in the title of this thread, Joe, and I thought about if for a long time before posting. If you visit the board regularly then you must have noticed that atheists gather around certain posts and threads and even posters, making comments about believers. My point is , firstly, that it is putting people into a group and calling them "believers" that could lead to the site...to use your word...degenerating. ..." Chariklo, page #3, post #2066
"An atheist believes that God does not exist. he believes it definitely. He has considered the issue. He is absolutely, positively certain that there is no god, and he is likely to say so. ... If he does not believe that God exists, he may or may not be an atheist. if it is a definite considered belief to the point of certainty, then he is an atheist and his belief is as outlined above. ..." Chariklo, page #3, post #2066 again
"Hi, New Chapter!
[Quoting New Chapter] The problem is that many believers cannot separate themselves from their beliefs, so an attack on their beliefs is an attack on them. [end quote of New Chapter]
Wow. That's a generalisation if ever I saw one! ..." Chariklo, page #3, post #2068
"[quoting Zid]...And I KNOW that ALL of these deities AREN'T real, based on RESEARCH. There's no "belief" involved.[end Zid's comment]
No, quite the opposite. You don't KNOW all that. You believe it. ..." Chariklo, page #3, post #2071
"I've no idea. You'll have to ask a believer who scorns atheists. I don't know. I don't, and I don't know anyone who does." Chariklo, page #4, post #2072
Ah - huh...
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Qcmbr
Mind you it is hard not to be somewhat scornful of a belief that requires a blood sacrifice as its central belief.
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Chariklo
Your point, Ziddina? it escapes me.
And Phizzy...THANK YOU!!!!
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GromitSK
NC made the point earlier that we shouldn't automatically respect another's beliefs. Personally I think that's correct. We ought perhaps to respect their right to hold them, however illogical they may seem to us. Of course not respecting a belief is not the same as disrespecting it.
If I simply hold a set of beliefs and don't want to test them, as far as I can see that's perfectly fair, however unwise others may think it to be. I may have good personal or psychological reasons for not wanting to challenge my beliefs at this point. The problem arises perhaps when I share these beliefs with others. If I share my beliefs in a place where I know I am in the company of others, for example a church, who profess the same beliefs, I think it is reasonable to expect that these beliefs probably will not be challenged, at least publicly, provided they conform to the beliefs of the church.
This forum however isn't the same kind of place as a church. Surely it is reasonable, if I express a belief, to expect others to ask why I believe it? This isn't a noticeboard so if I express a belief, probably discussion will result and I may learn that the basis of my belief isn't as sound as I thought. Isn't this simply the process of developing our own thinking? I am pretty sure most posters would agree this is obvious.
Offering an unsolicited opinion on another's beliefs in some places might be seen as rude, however by expressing a belief here it seems to me one is inviting the opinion of others.
it occurs to me that sometimes posters are not used to having their opinions or beliefs questioned or challenged. This can be a shock to the system, I know it was when my own opinions were challenged for the first time a long while back in the mists of my youth. Sometimes this is perceived as an attack, either because the person expressing the belief is unused to challenge, or is sensitive or because the person challenging them is dogmatic, aggressive or simply in command of more actual facts about the situation on which they have formed their own opinion. In this situation it is easy to respond defensively, even if that wasn't the posters's intention provoke it. Before long someone makes a personal remark and it descends into a chimps' tea party and opportunities to learn and revise our own opinions can disappear (not that I am against a verbal punch-up when all parties are up for it).
It seems to me that the key to understanding challenges (and also initial posts) is in part at least, down to understanding the motive behind them. I sometimes ask myself am I challenging someone else's belief because I really want to help the person develop, or because I want to reinforce or simply to test my own 'beliefs' or understanding of the facts, or because it makes me feel good, or simply to correct the record, or because I get some kind of gratification out of having an argument? (there are I am sure plenty of other motives too!). Understanding our own motives can be tricky (at least I often find it tricky).
I visit a few forums and I don't think the posters here are much different from a cross-section of members on other boards where discussion is encouraged. Perhaps some of us need to be a little more sensitive to the feelings of others and how we phrase our challenges and others need to be a bit less sensitive about being asked to explain themselves and why they believe they things the do in the face of information to the contrary.
Sorry this went on a bit. Just my two penn'orth.
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Chariklo
NC made the point earlier that we shouldn't automatically respect another's beliefs. Personally I think that's correct. We ought perhaps to respect their right to hold them, however illogical they may seem to us.
Nicely put, GromitSK. That is a good distinction and elucidation. I agree with all you say.
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punkofnice
It's down to individuals.
Some 'believing' individuals are a pain in the arse and some 'non believing' individuals are a pain in the arse.
Some 'believers' are bloody brilliant and some 'non believers' are bloody brilliant.
I don't normally bother with these threads because they 'cause divisions' (TM) hahahahahahahahaha
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Chariklo
Punk, I agree with all of that. Far from wanting to cause dividions, I was naively hoping to exactly the opposite, and to reduce and repair the divisive behaviour I saw going on, and from which I too had suffered.
As I said above, I made a wrong call. I regret starting the thread. Experience should have taught me that perceptions vary so dramatically that I was unlikely to be understood except by some.
and so it proved to be.
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nicolaou
I have a problem with people like Dawkins
What's your problem with Dawkins? He's a proper gentleman. Polite, understated, doesn't use coarse language or expletives. Seriously, what's not to like?
And in response to your opening comment; "First of all, [atheists] illogically and conveniently forget that they, too, are "believers". They passionately believe that there is no god. If they didn't believe it, if they are merely unsure, then they are not atheists but agnostics. Therefore, atheists too are believers."
There is no such thing as Agnosticism. Agnostics do not exist!
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tornapart
I don't think all atheists scorn believers. Some may do I'm sure, just as some believers scorn atheists. I have some wonderful atheist friends. They respect me and I respect them, we share thoughts but we don't push our beliefs on to each other and we respect each others differences. The important thing is that each person is happy in their own beliefs. Of course a believer is going to want the atheist to ask him/herself questions about the existence of God and the atheist is going to want to get the believer to question things too. If it's done in a spirit of kindness and respect on both sides then there should be no problems.
At the end of the day I'd far rather be with a happy, kind atheist than a miserable, self-righteous believer (and visa versa)! For me it's all down to someone's personality and disposition than what he/she believes.