dont know thw old greek but: "Whenever" to my mind means "every time" bobcats ww2 idea, Chaimberlain in Munich, Rippentrop in moscow- soviet nazi non-agression pact. Of course there will be a final time "told you so", but its not a trigger to the big A, its happening all the time. Pauls letters to Thessanolica sayd: dont be alrmened, stampeded into panic. blessings.
A Different View of "Peace and Security"
by Bobcat 33 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Rattigan350
There is no fricken cry or declaration of peace and security. The WTS has been getting that wrong over the years.
They just like generating excitement for scripture.
What Paul meant was that the events would be unexpected. That is why he said it would be like a thief in the night.
He got his analogy from Babylon surrounding Jerusalem, then leaving for Egypt then coming back and destroying Jerusalem.
Paul was reflecting on the past. People don't understand that Paul was not a prophet, he was not inspired to tell the future.
So what difference does it make what he says. He is just a guy who studied Israel history.
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rhodesboy
Wake up people! Global war is comming then the cry of ''peace and security'' then Babylon burns...
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Bobcat
This was posted by IslandMan on this thread. It included an interesting additional take on the text of 1 Thess. 5 that I wanted to catalog on this thread. (Thanks IslandMan!)
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Re: new light on 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
I think it is possible that the significance of that verse has been blown out of proportion by the GB in their thinking of it as being some announcement that would indicated destruction is near.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 could simply be an expansion on the thought mentioned in verse 2: "that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night". In other words, the writer, after saying that Jehovah's day is coming as a thief in the night explains the significance of the statement by saying that it would take people by surprise when they feel secure and at peace. The writer could be in effect saying:
"Jehovah's day is coming as a thief in the night, i.e. it would catch the wicked off guard at a time when they feel at peace and secure - like a householder in his bed at night feeling at peace and secure when BAM! a thief comes!"
This possibility is supported by the fact that the very next verse - verse 4 - returns to the illustration of the thief:
"But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves,"
So since 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is sandwiched between 2 verses using the illustration of a thief or thieves coming suddenly in the night, it is very likely that verse 3 is simply an explanation of the significance of the illustration - that people would be caught off guard when they feel at peace and secure. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is likely not a prophecy of some grand announcement of international proportions related to peace and security and portending imminent destruction. Significantly, no other book of the NT, in speaking about day of Jehovah, mentions anything like is stated at 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
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Splash
There is also a mistranslation, or at least a very poor translation, in verse 4 in the NWT.
(1Th 5:4) "But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves."
This suggests that for some bizarre reason, "that day" would over take thieves!
What was meant, and can be discerned from the context (especially verse 2 quoted in the OP) is
"But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief."It properly refers back to the illustration of a thief that can suprise you when you are not expecting it.
Maybe this is one example of where the new Bible version will have a correction.
Splash
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Bobcat
Splash:
Actually, the NWT is based on a variant reading of the text. The idea in the variant is that, just as the thief is overtaken by daylight (in the sense of losing his cover), those who aren't prepared are overtaken by "that day."
The NICNT-Thessalonians commentary (Leon Morris, pp. 154-55) has a writeup about the variant reading, but definitely prefers the reading that most translations have. (See examples here.) It does acknowledge, though, that "many scholars accept" the rendering that the NWT has.
If the NWT rendering were the preferred reading, it would present a strange shift in focus. The earlier verses depict the believer and unbeliever facing the problem of the unexpected thief. Then verse four suddenly presenting the problem the thief has. Thus, your point is well thought out.
At any rate, thanks for pointing this out.
Take Care
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SanLuisObispoTruthSeeker
Bobcat, did you compare 1 Thess 5:1-6 from "The Message" Bible?
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5 1-3 I don’t think, friends, that I need to deal with the question of when all this is going to happen. You know as well as I that the day of the Master’s coming can’t be posted on our calendars. He won’t call ahead and make an appointment any more than a burglar would. About the time everybody’s walking around complacently, congratulating each other—“We’ve sure got it made! Now we can take it easy!”—suddenly everything will fall apart. It’s going to come as suddenly and inescapably as birth pangs to a pregnant woman.
4-8 But friends, you’re not in the dark, so how could you be taken off guard by any of this? You’re sons of Light, daughters of Day. We live under wide open skies and know where we stand. So let’s not sleepwalk through life like those others. Let’s keep our eyes open and be smart. People sleep at night and get drunk at night. But not us! Since we’re creatures of Day, let’s act like it. Walk out into the daylight sober, dressed up in faith, love, and the hope of salvation."
It captures the sense of Jesus Christ's warning and Paul's attitude that true Christians will be ready and not in need of six or ten men staring at the sky for signs from Above! Real Christians are told they will stand-out from the lazy ones unwilling to examine the teachings their teachers promote. Why did Jesus say a follower is "twice as worthy for Gehenna than the teacher, JWs have lots of evidence their teachings are false and their New World Society is full of unloving and calloused ones towards other followers of Christ worldwide. I told you the story of the JWs saying "It's not a big deal about the killings of the Christians in the Middle East because we don't have many JWs in those lands", that was a huge eye opening moment for me! It's true because I witnessed this same speech and attitude over my entire life with JWs. The truth about their conduct in Concentration Camps is coming forward too, they are not as great as we were told they were. It's not hard to imagine JWs would ignore their fellow non-Bible Student prisoners because they don't follow their group. JW love is conditional, half-hearted and frequent changes to hatred for no apparent reasons because of the thin-skinned nature of the zealots. Paul's words ring true to Christians, not to a Cult. People don't change, since I was a child I heard about the "great love" and "willing to die for my brother" and my experience is JWs are not willing to live for their own people or be a beacon Jesus said his true followers are! JWs usually are a family on your block not known for their kindness or concern for their street, it's just a hotel until God wrecks the World and your not a follower of the Governing Body so Your Gonna Die!
Historically speaking, true Christians never put a time-table or posted on their Calender (Fall of 1874, 1890? Fall 1913, 1914, 1917, 1920, 1925, 1975, 2014, 2025, 2041.....) thinking they could know by using Egyptian pagan edifices when their Master would arrive. Pre-Diluvian times while society was breaking down with extreme wickedness mankind had never experienced, life continued as it always had from the Begining. It's the Watchtower's agenda twisting Scripture to instill a fear of what might come, to avoid living and focus on any World Events, (The Fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989 would finally allow the Russians to join the United Nations and hunt down all the Churches using their library, or being part of the UN.) ,(The Great Tsunami of of 2004) and Fukashima, does their finger ever hurt from all that pointing or pseudo-alarmist scare tactics they promote?
The Message Bible is closer to Paul's words and makes more sense with Jesus's warning of describing when the End would come and how people would act like people, like people have always acted. Paul's words are not describing the United Nations yelling "We have Peace and Security!" do they?
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wantingtruth
"Paul's words are not describing the United Nations yelling "We have Peace and Security!" do they?"
THAT is right !
"We have the peace and the security" is what the "evil slave" (the GB) is crying (his motto ) - the essence and direction of his teachings , in order to blind others from God's will
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Bobcat
SanLuis:
Very interesting rendering (i.e. Message Bible) and your thoughts. Thanks for sharing.
Take Care