What is the essential difference between ridicule and reasoned debate?

by Terry 24 Replies latest social humour

  • Terry
    Terry

    Intellectual honesty requires that ideas get a fair hearing in discussion, debate and conversation.

    Can we agree on that?

    Holding persons or ideas up to ridicule has a different effect, however. It silences the fair hearing. It dismisses the conversation before it begins.

    Right?

    The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses will never be accused of intellectual honesty in this regard. Why? They never allow criticism!

    Using labels, fear, prejudice and control this body of leaders stop members from listening BEFORE ideas CAN be heard, considered or weighed!

    What is to be feared by a FAIR HEARING of ideas?

    Can we agree on the following?

    Good ideas drive away bad.

    The better argument beats the inferior.

    Labeling your critic or questioner an Apostate, demonic, mental defective or disrespectful enemy of God ENDS the fair hearing before it starts.

    Jesus allowed questioners to question him. He engaged in debate. After ideas and arguments were heard he would call a spade a spade. But, the debate was allowed first!

    The Governing Body allows no such debates as Jesus engaged in.

    Could we now stop and ask ourselves if there is a fundamental principle involved in labeling so as to SHUT DOWN free idea exchange?

    Could we say that pejoratives, labels and such betray a FEAR of something being exposed that might destroy the inferior idea?

    Tyranny of the Minority is a reality. The Governing Body amounts to a few old men among 7 million Jehovah's Witness members and yet

    they solidly impose their own will effectively. How is this possible?

    Some people have mistakenly assumed that the higher the vote required to take an action, the greater the protection of the members. Instead the opposite is true. Whenever a vote of more than a majority is required to take an action, control is taken from the majority and given to the minority. ... The higher the vote required, the smaller the minority to which control pass es. (from "The Standard Code of Parliamentary Procedure" by Alice Sturgis)

    What has this got to do with Jehovah's Witnesses? After all, they do not vote on policy.

    In effect, however, the opposite is true--by remaining under the control of a minority leadership willingly members vote with their butts by staying in their seat during meetings and nodding and hi-lighting the words of their leaders.

    How was this effected?

    CENSORSHIP over FREE DISCOURSE imposed through RIDICULE and LABELING!

    If you are made to fear any ideas OTHER THAN approved ones---censorship has ended all debate.

    If every idea is on the table you are FREE to examine it for value.

    After all, money has a value attached and it is printed or minted right on the face of the coin or bill.

    We instantly know that .25 cents is less than a $10 bill.

    Ideas are like currency, too. The exchange rate of ideas amounts to HOW EFFECTIVE they are.

    Labeling currency COUNTERFEIT stops the exchange of money just as effectively as labeling ideas APOSTATE.

    In Politics, the attack of an opponent by "going personal" demonstrates the poverty of ideas of the one using such an attack.

    "My opponent is a liar" forces attention away reasoned discussion of ideas and policies.

    Much more intellectually honest is, "Here are why my ideas are better than my opponent."

    When you are asked to reason between two different things YOU have the power.

    When you are told somebody or something is "Stupid" "Ridiculous" "Lying" etc. power to decide is removed FROM your consideration.

    Removing other people's power to decide, consider and weigh is the mark of one who fears REASONABLE DISCOURSE.

    On this discussion board arguments always begin with LABELING by name-calling. Always.

    The one who does the name-calling demonstrates unwillingness to debate ideas, facts and logic by substituting prejudicial diversion.

    Leveling accusations at Apostates by the Governing Body, in effect, silences debate because members cannot listen and will not hear what is said.

    The one ironclad rule we can draw from this ridicule, slander, name-calling and censorship is plain:

    The side with the weakest argument will call names when they fear they are losing in the free market of ideas.

    You are empowered by hearing BOTH sides. You are being controlled and insulated when you are denied free access to all the facts.

    BEWARE of the power of RIDICULE!

    When somebody attempts to quote a source and a loud voice intrudes shouting:
    "That person is an idiot (fill in the blank)" Remember this is not an argument of reasoned discourse with a free exchange of ideas!

    It is an attempt to control what YOU will hear BEFORE you hear it.

  • tec
    tec

    That was excellent Terry!

    Nothing I can even add.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    Well, the difference is contempt for the ideas. People who can't reason often resort to ridicule. Sometimes, though, people who can reason and debate an issue get tired of doing it over and over, and they resort to ridicule, too.

    Ridicule puts an end to reasonable discussion.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Well, the difference is contempt for the ideas. People who can't reason often resort to ridicule. Sometimes, though, people who can reason and debate an issue get tired of doing it over and over, and they resort to ridicule, too.

    Ridicule puts an end to reasonable discussion.

    That we well said!

    I'm beginning to suspect a great deal of ignorance--like a societal plague--has decended upon civilization caused by minds empty of actual knowledge!

    Who reads great literature anymore? Who is curious about history?

    Entertainment and opinionating and sports are the be-all and end-all of society.

    The knuckle-draggers don't seem to have reasoned responses because there IS NO REASONING going on.

    Sad and troubling.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Excellent thread, Terry! I agree with everything you've said.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    This might be true of a formal debate but I see little relevance to an online forum. No single poster either by being reasonable or by ridiculing can hold up, suppress or drive forward a discussion. People will make up their mind, maybe share and move on regardless of any other poster. In fact I've been motivated to post and join in a debate I was otherwise not drawn to due to certain posters views being inflammatory or plain dumb.

    I think that , in an online forum, weak ideas crave uncritical acceptance and back pats. Great comments and keenly argued ideas stand up by themselves and don't require a kumbya chorus.

    Imo.

  • Terry
    Terry

    This might be true of a formal debate but I see little relevance to an online forum. No single poster either by being reasonable or by ridiculing can hold up, suppress or drive forward a discussion.

    I can hardly agree because I've just read a whole thread where Cedars started a topic about Watchtower's litigation response in the Condi case

    and it was hit by a Mac Truck of ridicule and spun out of control. That topic is relevant to this topic as far as cause and effect is concerned.

  • glenster
  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    This might be true of a formal debate but I see little relevance to an online forum.

    This is the usual comeback for those that have little else in the tool box but insults and ridicule. On an online forum it HAS to include personal attacks and ridicule.

    Terry described very well the difference between debate and ridicule. Less seasoned debators MUST resort to ridicule when backed into a corner. This occurs on both sides of the debate when both sides are somewhat immature or on less solid ground that they would like. When they are faced with a tough question that they cannot answer, they have to resort to a personal attack.

    Example: A believer faced with a tough question from an atheist that they cannot answer may resort to: "You are showing yourself to be an enemy of God!"

    Example: An atheist frustrated over the stance of a believer may resort to: "You are delusional, lack intelligence, and are an idiot! You believe in fairy tales that cannot be proven."

    Very few of us will be in formal debates. Why should there be a separate standard for "formal debates" and debates that take place on a discussion board?

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    People will make up their mind, maybe share and move on regardless of any other poster.

    You're right, some people will. But some people are not so arrogant that they cannot agree with something said by another that makes sense. Some will hold to what they believe or feel to the death whether there is evidence of it or not. But not all. Some really are open to new ideas and being wrong.

    Personally I am VERY strong with where I stand in my belief in a creator. However, I have backed down many times and acceded to another point of view. Maybe not enough IN PUBLIC, but in my mind I have and have tried to show that when talking to others in the future.

    Of course there will be the immature and angry posters. Of course there will be those that will not accept evidence no matter where they see it. But you can't lop everyone into that group. You can't say that everyone is only concerned with putting forth their ideas and opinions and nothing that anyone says is going to change them. That's just not reality. There are probably hundreds of lurkers on this site that are reading through these threads to get a greater understanding and position as to what they believe. Especially after leaving the WT. MANY are still looking for truth and open to it when they find it.

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