Bumping a very good thread...
REALITY may not be what you think
by Terry 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Terry
When my son was 3 years old I was trying to teach him the difference between what is REAL and what wasn't.
I gave a number of examples until I thought I had it covered pretty well.
A little later I thought I would quiz him as he was watching televsion.
Cartoons were on and I asked him if the pig character was real or not.
He said, "No, it is animation."
Then, the news came on. The newscaster was running down the latest happenings.
I pointed to the man reading the news and asked, "Real or not?"
My son replied, "Not."
I laughed. "No, I'm sorry son. That man is a real man."
My son replied. "Sorry dad, that is a TV screen image and not a real man."
Doh!!
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Etude
Terry: reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.
You always seem to introduce interesting and thought-provoking topics. Kudos! For me, I would have to alter your statement to read: "Reality is the perceived state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined."
The reason is that I find individual reality regarding the same events or things differs, sometimes in imperceptible ways and other times in significant ways. This may be due to our unique point of view (either physical or attitudinal or both). This is demonstrated in the classic eye-witness experiments that show how poor our perception can be when describing a crime scene. http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php, http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/apl/71/2/291/,
Above and beyond the everyday events we experience, there seems to be a fundamental problem with reality even in the quantum world where the position of a speck of nanoscopic matter is reduced to a statistical probability and where another particle can exist in two places at the same time. How do we reconcile that?
So, what is reality, really? I really, really want to know (insert X-Files theme song). Even as a Jehovah's Witness, I thought about what was becoming a more certain cruelty of life, the one that deceived us into thinking we really had a choice about the big things in life. For me, the emerging reality was that my past environment, my physical limitations, my emotional make up and my present situation set me up for failure in so many ways.
It's not that there's absolutely no way to surpass one's shortcomings. The problem is that our perception of what is possible (reality) is often distorted. Early on, my religious and personal experiences let me to zig instead of zag and I ended up with the wittlesses. A different experience or maybe a defiance of my up-to-then reality would have led to an entirely different path.
Perhaps as you say " Reality doesn't require you to know anything. " But it seems to me that reality does provide knowledge. When I wake up in the morning or any other time from a dream or sleep, my brain tries to assess where I am. It's mostly an unconscious reaction for my brain to acknowledge my bedroom surroundings and not question whether I live there or not. But that's not always the case. There are times when I wake up totally disoriented. One thing seems true: we take cues from our environment via our senses. How we deal with those cues is a totally different matter.
In the case of what you're proposing regarding the witlesses being unwitting zero-personality criminals, I tend to disagree. The fact that you made it out is an example of triumph on the part of your personality. Otherwise, you, me and many others would have continued on like lemmings. Rather than the suppression of our personalities, it is the occasional jolt of a different realization that wakes us up to the inconsistencies that gnaw at us and finally cause us to break free.
I can recall a very specific moment when my reality or what I perceived the world to be came to a profound change. I was about 4 or 5 years old. I was accustomed to sit on the stoop of my front door (with strict supervision) and watch people and cars go by. On that one particular day, while looking to the left and then to the right of our one-way street, as if the skies suddenly opened, I realize that around the corner from my block there was another street and even more streets beyond that. I had visited those places before with my dad and other people. But up to that point, my world consisted of what was in front of me. I was for the first time able to conceptualize that the place in front of me was somehow connected to every other place I'd been to.
I've seen experiments where a 7 year old (I believe they can count from 1 to 10 at that point) will tell you that there are more marbles in a glass tube with 10 marbles than in a plate with 10 marbles, even if you have them count the marbles over and over again. The problem is that most children at that age are not yet able to abstract the "quantity" aspect of things and only work with the "volume" aspect of things. So, the "stacked" marble container has more marbles. There are discrete states of perception associated with growing up. Unfortunately, some of us, for whatever reason, develop less keenly and perhaps end up lacking the sophistication to make determinations of reality, especially in moral and psychological instances. I think that the best we can do to is keep questioning and testing if our reality is going to hold up.
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Satanus
Funny.
'My son replied. "Sorry dad, that is a TV screen image and not a real man."'
A talking head, is more exact. The head is real, but what it's saying may or may not be real.
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d
Our mind see patterns in where their may be any patterns at all.
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Reality vs Delusion
Reality is. When you add perceptions of any kind, you no longer have reality, you have perception.
All people have delusions about life, the universe, themselves, others, and basically everything they come into contact with every day. The ones that deny that fact are usually the most delusional, convincing themselves they are the exception and they see the "truth." They make the mistake of thinking their personal perceptions & unconscious delusions ARE reality.
Reality is not a perception, an idea, or a belief. Our personal understanding, knowledge, and feelings are simply NOT reality. They are only our limited understanding, our limited knowledge, and our feelings.
This is not a bad thing at all. If we can relax our beliefs and insecurities long enough to honestly see what is around us, we will find reality to be very easy. Making up imaginary stories that don’t match the evidence is hard, unhealthy & exhausting. As Ex-JWs, we all know this is true. We make up the stories to protect ourselves from our fears & to gain acceptance.
In my efforts to see what is real, I have been forced to face a reality about JWs. When someone will harm you to preserve their delusions, they are evil. They don’t intend to be evil, but the evidence supports only that conclusion. If a "good" person will ignore child molestation (for example) so they don’t have to face their perceptions about religion, they cannot be “good.”
I don’t condemn them personally at all, I really like most of them and think if they could get back to their true personality, they would be wonderful people. But the deep delusions of the JWs have created sociopath-like behavior. If it quacks like a duck. It was very hard for me to see this in my family and friends, but it is undeniable. I don’t view them as evil, but I know if I let my guard down, they will try to destroy my self worth and that action is always evil
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” -Steven Weinberg
Is this just my perception? Certainly. But the evidence supports it so far. If the evidence changes, so will by perception. But until then, 2+2=4.
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Etude
"Reality is not a perception, an idea, or a belief. Our personal understanding, knowledge, and feelings are simply NOT reality. They are only our limited understanding, our limited knowledge, and our feelings."
Your avatar and its creation date seems too coincidental for this subject. Nevertheless, I want to respond and state that the statement above confuses me. On the one had you say that reality is not a perception but then you say that our understanding, knowledge and feelings are limited by our understanding and limited knowledge. If our perception or ideas or beliefs do not involve knowledge and the feelings we associate with them, how can that not possibly be our reality? My interpretation of your statement is that "our limited understanding, our limited knowledge, and our feelings" are indeed our perception of reality. What else could there be?
So, I contend that our perception is in essence our only reality. That is all we really have. If we have limitations ascertaining how real something is, because our senses fail us, because events turn out to be something other than what we thought, because science cannot fully explain dichotomies in nature, then reality becomes what we have left, namely our own perception of the world. That doesn't mean that we can't question our perception, indeed our reality, and glean something different that what would follow for someone else. We could for example decide that our reality (perhaps aspects that appear to limit us) can be changed, altered or bypassed.
My point is that what we do with our reality seems to be what determines where we end up. We see it here on this discussion site. Many have a common reality about what the Jehovah's Witnesses actually represent and do. Within that number, some decide that they must remain inside and explore what they do and others decide that remaining is an untenable situation and must separate. What makes that difference is their perception of how the lie must be dealt with. Their common reality is that there exists a horrible lie. Their separate reality is that they need to deal with that lie in very different ways. Perception seems to be everything.
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talesin
Don Henley,,, hmmm, reality? in our society, it is an elusive commodity.
"Today I made an appearance downtown
I am an expert witness, because I say I am
And I said, 'Gentleman....and I use that word loosely....
I will testify for you
I'm a gun for hire, I'm a saint, I'm a liar
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
Just a data to be manipulated
I can get any result you like
What's it worth to ya?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution
No remorse, no retribution
Just people selling T-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
And winning, winning, winning'" -
Reality vs Delusion
I created the account a month ago & I wish I had picked a different name. I was thinking about reality & delusion at the time, so I used it. No coincidence, just something I have been trying to figure out lately. As for the avatar, I didn’t pick it & it looks like a lobotomized blueberry. I can see what you are saying about that statement being confusing, it doesn’t really say what I meant. Let me clarify my thinking.
Reality can only be realized through rational thought & reasoning. However, that reasoning must be based solely on whats really there & that isn’t always easy. We have to face our emotional delusions and recognize that they are present and actively distorting every thought. We must see past out perceptions & beliefs, because they are built on misconceptions (false understanding & false knowledge).
I grew up hearing that there is no reality, only perception. I believed it, but recently I changed my mind. The fact is 2+2 will always be 4, even if I am convinced that the answer is 5. If I am unaware of my delusion, all my perceptions will be false & I will be viewed as mentally ill by any sane person. Reality is simply fact and is beyond our personal perceptions and feelings. Our opinion doesnt replace the facts. From where I am sitting all my perceptions tell me the earth is flat and unmoving, that doesn’t mean the earth really is flat & unmoving. If I feel I am in the only true religion, that doesn’t mean I really am in the only true religion. Beliefs, perception, and wishful thinking are not ultimate reality.
While I have seen very little (if any) evidence that a spiritual world exists, if it does exist it must be approached from reality alone & without delusion. If there is a god, he would only function in reality. So whatever spiritual pursuit we may consider, the first step must always be from a point of clear sanity. Our personal delusions will alter reality & it will no longer be real.
If we continuously accept delusion and take everything on faith, before long we will not be able to tell the difference between what is real and what is our delusion or imagination. That is the current state of JWs, they believe whatever they are told and simply are not aware that it isn't real by any measure. Because of this, they can make totally unfounded personal claims on ANY subject & they truly believe what they just imagined is real... and cannot understand anyone who questions or denies it. No matter the validity of the initial idea, if it is filtered through a delusional mind, it will become delusional and harmful.
The ability to recognize reality and delusion is hugely important. From what I have seen, thinking our personal delusions are reality is causing ALL of our problems. Accepting reality comfortably (without trying to make it fit our belief system) allows us to truly live and be happy.
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Reality vs Delusion
I should clarify that when I say sane and insane, I am not being insulting or insinuating mental illness. I see sanity as simply seeing things as the are and insanity is refusing to see what is real and manufacturing an alternate story to replace reality. Many mentality healthy people behaving “insanely” simply because they don’t realize they have a choice.
A “sane” person will do their best to see through their emotional baggage and recognize what is really happening & respond to the facts of the situation. They will understand that if they ignore reality, it will be harmful to them. You can recognize a “sane” person because they will consistently choose what is best for themselves emotionally and physically. They are usually more sincere and relaxed because they have no false identity or beliefs to uphold.
An “insane” person creates delusions and beliefs to escape reality, which they must assume will harm them. You can recognize an “insane” person because they will consistently choose what is unhealthy for themselves.
Having feelings and emotions are good. I am not suggesting we act like Spock and behave and speak in pure rationality. But my experience when leaving the JWs was that I didn’t feel anything genuine, it was all programming, rehearsed responses, and emotional self defense. I was emotionally crippled. Only when I faced each issue (real or imagined) openly did I see that my delusions & beliefs had replaced any real emotions & feelings. My perceptions were based on those delusions.
Now my emotions flow more naturally. They are more gentle and I am not blinded by them. I don’t feel controlled, guilty, or ashamed about what I feel. I am still working on them and figure there is plenty of room for improvement. But I must always see reality and respond to it alone if I am going to continue to heal.
The emotions seem to support our true beliefs about ourselves. If we believe that we are worthless, our emotions will support that thinking. We will crave what is unhealthy & harmful in relationships, food, lifestyle, and every other choice. While these beliefs are usually unconscious, they are advertised in our choices.
If we are paying attention to the reality of our actions, we will see what out true beliefs really are. Some of them are painful and shocking. I recently recognized that I was making up stories about myself, refusing to recognize the facts of my health and assuming I would be the exception. I was totally unaware I was doing this. But, like all delusion, it was harmful. I was not doing what was healthy for me because my denial based perception said I would be fine with a poor diet and no exercise. I was behaving insanely, but I am trying to overcome that belief and improve my health.