REALITY may not be what you think

by Terry 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Etude
    Etude

    Reality vs Delusion:

    " Ultimate reality isn’t known right now. " I disagree. The problem lies in what we mean when we say "reality". Is it the everyday reality of our experience (intrinsic) or the reality of the universe apart from us (extrinsic)? For the world to make sense to me, the two need to meet or one flow into or from the other. One (the intrinsic) is more subjective, the other (extrinsic) less so, which allows us to assume that it exists whether we're here to experience it or not. It's the former I mostly concentrated on which we perceive in different ways, depending on our unique points of view. Therefore, making sense of it all requires questioning our perceptions or observations (as an everyday experience or as formal study of quantum physics).

    This is why I mentioned and cited the Innocence Project reference showing how flawed our methods of perceiving an event (reality) actually are. That alone should make us wonder how it is we see things and what it is we assume reality to be.

    With due respect to my hero Rene Descartes, I would say that "reality is known". Even if our reality consists of a common delusion that we live in a country with streets and laws and that we go to work every day, etc and that if it only exists in a dream, then THAT is our reality.

    " Our core thinking has to be grounded in reality. " Which reality? How else can we describe reality (at least the every-day kind) other than as an observable experience? How do we incorporate the tragic events of an automobile accident we witness other than via our senses? How do we account for the fact that if you ask ten witnesses to the accident, you may get ten different accounts of what happened?

    I realize someone will point out that one thing appears to be real: an automobile accident happened. The problem is that not everything we judge as reality is that concrete. Until we thoroughly question that experience or object with experimentation and logic, we may be left with different (possibly contradictory) versions of "reality". That's why I mentioned the example about the boulder in the middle of the road. One reality approximates another reality. The difference can be so insignificant as to not matter (like when all agree a car accident took place). But there is always the chance that it may matter significantly depending on the subject in question (like when we try to determine whose fault it was).

    " While the observer may alter an object, it is only because the nature of the object allows it to be altered. " How does a person determine the nature of which objects or events allow themselves to be altered? How do we ascertain its true "nature" while not assuming that what we think is its real nature is that indeed and not our version of it? How do we recognize the " reality & function " of nature unless we can first ascertain that what we are referring to as "nature" is accurate and not just an assumed version of reality?

    The answer to me is that, while assuming that everyone has a view, even a very similar view or reality, we need to question and examine our personal reality and that of others in order to determine if it approximates the truth. The truth is in the methods. This is not an easy task and, at least for me, doesn't always bring answers. But at least I'm willing to know that often, I live under assumptions. In t he end, like Descartes implies, whether I'm really dreaming I'm writing this and will wake up any second now, at least this is MY reality.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Just ask yourself what the differences may be between mathematics and religion.

    The two subjects can be treated with rigor but only one produces the same answers to everybody.

  • Etude
    Etude

    Right. This is why "reality" for religious people is so broad and inconsistent. The reality that tells one to shoot a little girl in the head for her support of of female eductaion may be influence the same way that another religious "reality" where we will live forever in a pastoral setting, petting lions, and picking fruit eternally.

    But even with Mathematics, we need to exercise caution. While there are mathematical proofs and 99.99% of it is consistent within itself, Mathematics itself cannot be proved. That's why it's not a natural science. Furthermore, in order to explain it, we need to come up with a meta-Mathematics and then a meta-meta-Mathematics and so on. There comes a point when we just need to accept what we have. But for me, that doesn't come until after I've taken a few wacks at it, to the best of my ability, to see if it holds up.

  • RoosterMcDooster
    RoosterMcDooster

    ~Just because you believe somthing is true, doesnt make it true;

    And just because you dont believe something, doesnt make it not true.~

  • Terry
    Terry

    But even with Mathematics, we need to exercise caution. While there are mathematical proofs and 99.99% of it is consistent within itself, Mathematics itself cannot be proved.

    Not sure what you mean about "mathematics itself cannot be proved. It is proved every day everywhere.

    Did you have a specific instance of your meaning I could wrap my mind around?

  • Reality vs Delusion
    Reality vs Delusion

    Page 3 will not load for some reason & I cannot read anything. Pages 1 and 2 are fine, but not 3. Odd.

    I am hoping if I post, it will let me view the page.

  • Etude
    Etude

    Terry: I was speaking in a formal sense. Mathematics is a logical set of rules we have come up with which sometimes apply to nature and sometimes do not. What mathematics (and its relatives, the calculus and higher disciplines) reveal can be gateways to great discoveries. What I think you mean to say by "it is proved everyday everywhere" is that we apply those rules of Mathematics every day, everywhere. There are times when scientists have to develop "new" Mathematics to deal with some stubborn problems. But Mathematics itself (its structure, rules and reasons for rules) escape origin and an explanation.

    Unlike with Physics, where experimentation verifies the theories and axioms proposed, there is no way to "verify" the theories and axioms in mathematics. Math largely justifies itself until it doesn't. And even if it does, the Holy Grail of scientists is to find what explains Mathematics (the Meta-Mathematics) There are meta-mathematics being proposed and considered all the time. Here is a link to a book on Metamath (http://us.metamath.org/downloads/metamath.pdf) The problem is that even if that elegantly proves why mathematics work the way it works, now we need to find what explains the meta-mathematic.

    There is an enormous and compelling allure about mathematics that (to me) indicates its own reality, where multiple dimensions are quite common and where you can add and subtract infinities. But I think it will be a long time before we can apply those equations to our everyday reality. So, even when we can work with mathematics and figure out what your hand would look like on the other side if you pass it to another dimension (I read about this once), the reality is that presently we can't do it in real life. So, which is real, Mathematics and the proof that multiple dimensions can be manipulated or the reality that (presently) that is impossible?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Unlike with Physics, where experimentation verifies the theories and axioms proposed, there is no way to "verify" the theories and axioms in mathematics. Math largely justifies itself until it doesn't.

    Okay, got it!

    The problem of self-reference compels certain conventions to be accepted without question so that the heuristic can work. (F.O.I.L.)

    This must be done only in this order.

    Everything humans do to successfully control their enviornment and promote welfare and progress is a learned series of procedures.

    Math is a procedure.

    The practical nature of its inner workings when applied is beyond question. However, the philosophical implications can get bogged down when

    language (non-math, that is) assumes that meta-reality applies. Just as a gifted artist can accurately sketch an object with photographic likeness

    so can the mathematician "sketch" a practical representation of reality.

    But, that same artist can sketch an imaginary landscape as well. Theoretical math is the equivalent.

    The application of real premises to imaginary subsets is a wonderful excercise which may later yield practical results.

    To jump back directly on topic: keeping track of the practical vs the tentatively meta-practical can be thorny.

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