Ethos is that really all that you have?
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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OUTLAW
Ethos..
You still haven`t provided proof for 607BCE..
People can either agree with you..
Someone who Admits they "Make Shit Up"..
Or ..
They could go to their local library and do some Real Research..
Not One Encyclopedia Agree`s With You..
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You Lose..Again..
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...OUTLAW -
sd-7
Do you agree with Jeffro and AnnoMaly that the context does not indicate that the word used for servitude in Jeremiah meant slavery or do you agree with this arsenal of scholars and experts whose combined credentials immeasurably exceed that of everyone on this forum? You decide.
Question--what year do these experts think Jerusalem's slavery/exile/whatever began?
You are free to quote them on that, if possible--it would help us all to get your point. (I say that without any hint of sarcasm or ad hominem attacking, I might add.)
--sd-7
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Finkelstein
So given a couple of years of the start of the exile 605 - 607, neither of these years are associated with the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple.
Why does the WTS. say that ?
INTERPRETATION OF DANIEL CHAPTER 4:23-25:
Let us consider first of all your understanding of Daniel chapter 4. In your understanding Daniel’s prophecy indicates that a period of 2,520 years would elapse on earth during which there would be no representative government for Jehovah on the earth.
During the appointed times of the nations worldly governments would be allowed to interrupt rulership approved by God. That period began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E, and Daniel indicated that it would go on for “seven times.”6
Does Daniel 4:14-17 say about future events which would take place in the twentieth century? Let us consider this text in its context,
These words represent Daniel’s explanation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Babylon and he had a dream which greatly troubled him. In this dream he saw a very tall tree, such that it could be seen to the ends of the earth. The foliage of this tree was beautiful and its fruit abundant and the birds nested in the tree. The obvious question is this: What does this tree represent? We are not left with any doubt about the answer to this question, for God’s infallible word answers it.
Consider the following which is the record of Daniel’s interpretation of the dream,
The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong and the height of which finally reached the heavens and which was visible to all the earth, and the foliage of which was fair, and the fruit of which was abundant, and on which there was food for all; under which the beasts of the field would dwell, and on the boughs of which the birds of the heavens would reside, it is you, O king, because you have become great, and your grandeur has grown great and reaches the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth. (Dan. 9:20-22 New World Translation)
You will notice that Daniel states quite clearly that this tree represented Nebuchadnezzar himself. Observe the phrase “It is you, O King” this can only mean that Nebuchadnezzar himself is represented by this tree. The reference to the great height of the tree so that it could be seen from everywhere was a reference to his great power and his extensive influence in the world. Now you will note that in this dream which Nebuchadnezzar had he saw the tree cut down so that only the root was left. This is how Nebuchadnezzar explained to Daniel what he saw,
I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! A watcher even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. He was calling out loudly and this is what he was saying: CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field; and with the dew of heavens let it be wet, and with the beast let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth. Let its heart be changed from that of mankind and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. (Dan. 4:13-16 New World Translation)
What is the meaning of the cutting down of this tree? Again God’s infallible word answers this question for us. Daniel explained to Nebuchadnezzar that the Most High God was going to remove him from his dominion for a season. The reason for this judgment is made perfectly clear, it was because of Nebuchadnezzar’s great pride in that he would not acknowledge the Most High as ruler over mankind. The length of that season of his madness was to be “seven times.” During this period of “seven times” his heart would be changed to the heart of a beast and he would be driven away from mankind and eat grass like the wild animals.
..this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. And you will be driven away from men and with the beasts of the field and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like the bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to give it. (Dan. 4:24,25 New World Translation)
It is plainly evident that Daniel regarded this dream as referring to king Nebuchadnezzar himself – note how many times the word you occurs in this text. Note that Daniel said that these things must “befall my lord and king,” clearly referring to Nebuchadnezzar. Also note the very significant word until. You will note that Daniel said that “seven times” would pass over Nebuchadnezzar until he would recognize the Most High as Ruler in the kingdom of mankind. Did Nebuchadnezzar come to recognize this truth? Yes! See what Nebuchadnezzar had to say after his period of humiliation of “seven times,”
And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation to generation. (Dan. 4:34)
It is evident that the “seven times” refers to the period of time of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness. There is no good reason in the text to understand it as having reference to anything else at all other than the period of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness. It will be observed that these ‘seven times” would pass over Nebuchadnezzar before he would come to his senses – so these seven times cannot possibly be interpreted to mean a period of 2,520 years. What is the meaning of “seven times?” Whatever this phrase means it obviously has to be a relatively short time period. For Nebuchadnezzar’s insanity did not last for a long period of time. Scholars have suggested it could mean either seven lunar years, seven seasons or seven months. I am not sure which one of these is correct – however, what I am sure of is that seven times cannot possibly mean 2,520 years.
It will be observed in reading this prophecy that it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the kingdom of God. This prophecy is about the pagan king Nebuchadnezzar and has absolutely nothing whatever to do with God’s kingdom. By no stretch of the imagination is there anything in this text that would lead anyone to conclude that the period of seven represents a period of 2,520 years.
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Pterist
OUTLAW ... GREAT RESEARCH and devoted time to scanning. !!!!!
Ethos seems to be stuck on ONE Specific Event...and completely ignores ALL aspects that the Babylon power would bring to bear on Judah and all the surrounding nations.
The ONE specific event is the destruction for Jerusalem and dethronment of Zedekiah. He fails to see this is the LAST event of Judah's plight, and only because they refused to obey Jeremiah and listen to the false prophets....
if one wants to address "the exiles that would be returned" As one separate topic, regardless of time, Jeremiah clearly shows the exiles were Daniels group, followed by Jechoniah's group. We can show NT proof that the exile was considered to start with Jechoniah Matthew 1:11. And we can show scripture proof of the exiles that were returned..Matthew 1:13 and Ezra 2:1-2... Here I show 2 proofs of who were considered to be the "exiles" and those "exiles that were returned..
I asked ETHOS for ONE SCRIPTURE to show proof that ANYBODY was returned from Zedekiah's Group, considering HE believes that these are the exiles that Jeremiah's letter was intended. He has as NOT shown any scripture. The plain reading of Jeremiah's letter was sent to the first and second group, Daniel and Jechoniah as Zedekiah was still ruling in Jerusalem. If he can't see this flaw in this specific issue, how can he reason on the rest.
Shalom
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OUTLAW
OUTLAW ... GREAT RESEARCH and devoted time to scanning. !!!!!.....Pterist
I wish I could take the credit..It`s good work..
This is the thread it`s from:
607 B.C.E. - A Trip To The Local Library! With Pictures! (1 ...
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...OUTLAW -
AnnOMaly
Merely reposting your c&p's, Ethos, doesn't validate your position that servitude could only occur while exiled.
The meaning "to serve" (i.e. as a slave) is indicated in general contexts in Gen. 14:4; 1 Samuel 1:11; 17:9; 1 Kings 4:21; Jer 25:11; 27:6ff." - Expository Dictionary of Bible Words (Word Studies for Key English Bible Words Based on the Hebrew and Greek Texts, 2005)
How does this support your idea that servitude necessitates exile?
1 labour, work, do work: absolute Exodus 20:9 = Exodus 34:21 = Deuteronomy 5:13 (4th word); Exodus 5:18 (E) Ecclesiastes 5:11; with accusative of thing, till the ground Genesis 2:5; Genesis 3:23; Genesis 4:2,12 (J), 2 Samuel 9:10; Isaiah 30:24; Jeremiah 27:11." - (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, entry H5647)
How does this support your idea that the people had to be exiled before they could serve?
(abad, 5647), "to serve, cultivate, enslave, work." God told Abraham that his descendants would "serve" the people of a strange land 400 years (Gen.15:13), meaning, as in the NIV, "to be enslaved by." (exact wording used in reference to Judah serving the king of Babylon for 70 years) - (Vines Expository Bible Dictionary, p. 353)
How does this support your idea that servitude means exile?
"Primary definition of forcing into labor (cf. Ex. 1:13); compel (s. one) to (do sthg) [cf. 2 Ch. 34:33); -take into,keep in servitude, slavery [cf. Exodus 6:8]; make (s. one) do work (cf. Ez. 29:18)" - (A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, p. 262)
How does this support your understanding about servitude = exile?
"And God's punishment of his people in their exile to Babylon is to last seventy years." (2 Chr 36:21; Jer. 25:11-12; 29:10) - (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words)
How does this support your idea that only exiles could be in servitude?
"For the first time, Jeremiah shared the secret that the captivity in Babylon would last seventy years. God sent Israel into Babylonian exile for seventy years in order to give the land the rest it needed. (cf. Jer 25:8-11; 29:19) (The Wiersbe Bible Commentary: The Complete Old Testament, p. 1239; p.243)
How does this support your idea servitude had to involve exile?
"Moreover, the Babylonian captivity of the people was considered cruel slavery (Jer. 25:11; 27:7)." - (The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery, p. 537)
How does this support your idea that servitude is equivalent to exile?
Interesting it references Jeremiah 27:7 which says: "And all the nations must serve even him and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes.." which again shows us what the context dictated that the word 'serve' meant captivity or slavery.
It shows nothing of the sort. See bottom of post.
"As we have seen, the developed tradition of Jeremiah, well beyond the prophet himself, has fixed the time of deportation for Jerusalem at seventy years, after which there will be a restoration (see Jeremiah 25:11-12; 29:10)." - (The Theology of the Book of Jeremiah, p. 183)
This author believes Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE (see p. 8-9). How does he apply the 70 year period?
"Jeremiah's prophecy (Jer. 25:11-12) had revealed God's plan for the nation only up to the end of the 70-year Babylonian captivity." - (The Bible Knowledge Commentary: Old Testament, p. 1361)
The author agrees with the conventional chronology - in this case Jerusalem being destroyed in 586 BCE. See p. 1326 with its chart. How does the author apply the 70 years? What does he mean by 'captivity'?
"The confession grows out of Daniel's convinction that Jeremiah's prediction of a seventy-year exile (Jer 25:11-12; 29:10) will come true." - (Old Testament Theology, p. 506)
The author believes Jerusalem fell in 587 BCE and took Daniel in 605 BCE. See p. 302, 499. How does this help you?
"His function is to explain what is going on, and in many cases he does this with reference to motifs in earlier prophetic books: the seventy years of exile (Jer. 25:11; 29:10)." (HarperCollins Bible Commentary: Revised Edition p. 487)
How does the author count the exile? From when to when?
"Jeremiah elsewhere mentions an exile of seventy years (Jer. 25:10, 11; 29:10)." - (College Press NIV Commentary: Jeremiah and Lamentations, p. 227)
This author also believes Jerusalem fell in 586 BCE and Jehoiakim's 4th regnal year was 605 BCE (see e.g. p. 209). How does his understanding of the 70 years match yours?
"A famous passage in this regard is Jeremiah's twice-repeated prediction that the exile of the Judeans would last seventy years." (Jer 25:11; 29:10) - (Exile: Old Testament, Jewish, and Christian Conceptions, p. 89)
This you pulled out without taking in any of what the rest of the page said! The very next sentence after yours, the author states,
"Exile can also refer to a historical experience which began at three different times for various Judean groups (598, 587/86, 582) and presumably ended at different junctures as well, including the return in the year 538 under the leadership of Sheshbazzar (Ezra 1). ... ... [regarding Ezra 9:7] Captivity thus continues even for residents of Judah, as it does in another sense for those who remained in the lands of the dispersion."
"Note also the applying of the sabbatical year to the prophesying of an exile of 70 years (2 Ch 36:21; Jer. 25:11)." - (The Encyclopedia of Christianity, Volume 4, p. 789)
How does this prove your point about servitude meaning exile?
"On two occassions, Jeremiah had predicted that the captivity would last 70 years. (Jer 25:11; 27:10; cf. Dan. 9:2)." - (The Tyndale Bible Dictionary, p. 1325)
Captivity from when to when?
"Both versions present the same perspective of a fixed period of seventy years in the Exile." - (Exile and Suffering: A Textual Comparison, p. 107)
Again, the author has 587 BCE as the destruction of Jerusalem. How does he count those 70 years of 'exile'? How does this help you?
"Daniel's study of the books (OT scrolls) focused on the years prophecied for the captivity by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 25:11, 12 and Jeremiah 29:10. Cf. 2 Chronicles 36:21 where it is indicated that the seventy years of exile were intended to restore Sabbath rests." - (The MacArthur Bible Commentary)
And he agrees with the WT time-line, does he? I thought not. So how does he apply those 70 years? From when to when?
"The promise of a return from exile in seventy years (29:10-11)." - (Eedman's Commentary on the Bible, p. 587)
This commentary uses the conventional dating - deportations in 598/7 BCE and 587/6 BCE (p. 583). How does it count those 70 years?
According to 2 Kings 24:1:
Did Jehoiakim serve the king of Babylon? Yes or no?
Did he have to go to Babylon to serve the king of Babylon? Yes or no?
If you answer those questions honestly, you will find your insistence that 'servitude' has to involve exile is utter nonsense. Not everyone who served the king of Babylon did so in exile. Even your sources listed above do not claim this.
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Pterist
AnnOMaly ...I just figured out how to send a PM to you ! Thanks :)
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never a jw
Wrong thread
...OUTLAW