How important is evidence to your world view?

by snare&racket 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    Qualia, which are the subjective experiences of our minds, presents similar problems.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

    To quote Schrodinger from above:

    "The sensation of colour cannot be accounted for by the physicist's objective picture of light-waves. Could the physiologist account for it, if he had fuller knowledge than he has of the processes in the retina and the nervous processes set up by them in the optical nerve bundles and in the brain? I do not think so."

    Some of course, simply cut the Gordian Knot and say that there is no such thing as mind, that it is just a delusional perception. But I'd wager that all of us, except perhaps sociopaths, go through life on the intuition that others have minds. This behavior/belief emerges at a very early age.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Wikipedia ?

    The prof is not happy Botch.... he is giving you an....

    F -

    Must try harder, also the references you borrowed from wikipedia did not in any way support your statements. See me after class !!!

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    Snare, you are now on ignore.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Why ?

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Doh ! i really thought that would work..... lol

    I am sorry if I upset you Botch. I was being tounge in cheek too. I think the '6 months' comment set it off. I was being kind, took me 2 years of neurology and I still dont get it. I really wasnt calling you ignorant or uneducated.

    I feel a real discomfort discussing academia because I assume you all think I think I am a smarty pants, I really dont! I also dont think you are unintelligent. Its becaue we can ALL be so easily mislead that I make these threads. Thats my message... check everything out for yourselves! Thats why I am talking about evidence and critical appraisal.

    Anyway, sorry botch.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    It's cool. Maybe I was being too touchy. I was just trying to talk about something we all accept almost on faith. The Free Will thread got my thoughts running in that direction. And yes, neuroscience is a fascinating and challenging subject.

    BTS

  • Etude
    Etude

    Evidence in any decision or outlook is critically essential. The meaning of evidence imparts facts, information (knowledge) and corroborations (verification) regarding an object or event. All of that leads to a conclusion we call truth. So evidence and corroboration leads to truth (look up "evidence"). From that definition alone, I don't see how we could possibly operate in life without a constant consideration of evidence, so that we can arrive at truth.

    Truth is not relative. Truth is always true. What might have been considered true and is no longer was never true to begin with. If it WAS true, although assumed, was based on faulty evidence and faulty information (maybe faulty reasoning). Therefore, we need to discern what our sources of information are and that corroboration comes from neutral and reliable (as much as can be determined) sources.

    My trusty old college Logic text (Practical Logic, which I have no reason to doubt) states that one source of knowledge (information) can come internally via reason. Reason is the process via which we take data (facts and information) along with corroboration (separate data) and conclude or arrive at a new (or perhaps old but logical) conclusion. For example: If we're asked for the sum of 1 million plus 1 million, it's unlikely that we have ever seen one, let alone two million, to proceed and concretely come up with an answer. Nevertheless, we can muster a "2-million" answer based on reason. It seems that this and the other methods of knowledge and corroboration is all that would be required in order to maintain a proper "world view". Reasoning in a logical manner has rules and it seems not everyone is able to perform that task decently well. Logic is a great arbiter of whether our views are valid or not.

    Nevertheless, a "world view" would always likely remain incomplete because we just don't have the ability to know everything and we're inherently limited to information that could give us an accurate picture. In an ideal world, our "world view" would contain many "I don't know" statements. It would be obvious that some things can never be concluded upon or reasoned to a fare-thee-well.

    jgnat: " Similarly, no-one has taken a tape-measure to a star. Nevertheless, from known constants and triangulation, we can get very precise measurements. "

    This is a very good example of how reason can yield knowledge. We take some basic proven factors (units of measure [feet, miles], trajectory, the speed of light, etc) and deduce, without actually using a physical yard stick that such and such star is this or that far away. Even so, we have a problem: our present way of measuring has led us to conclude that based on the way the universe is expanding (the increasing distances between stars and galaxies), we are forced to conclude that there's much more matter we don't see -- Dark Matter. So lately, we are revisiting our ways of measuring to eliminate hypothetical matter that (by the scientific method) cannot be verified. What some are suggesting is that our idea of the constancy of the speed of light or time relativity is wrong. Holy cow!

    botchtowersociety, you make an excellent point in your #9070 post. You allude to mentality and how we can possibly know if we're facing it. I have seen clever computer programs that (via a monitor and keyboard) interacting with a human have fooled the human into thinking that they were talking to another person. You also refer to the philosophical argument that has been raised about this, one which you do not mention but still has sway on this dialog is the "Discourse on the Method" by Rene Descartes. The idea that there is very little we can ascertain to let us tell the difference between illusion and reality leads to not very much to conclude except that we (strictly I, or whomever you are) exists and the rest is as good as a dream or some reality we must accept with little other confirmation.

    botchtowersociety: " Yes, but as we both know, electrons are measured in other ways. "

    Hence lies the problem. There is a part of the quantum physics that tell us that what we measure, when it comes to the electron and similar particles, is a statistical prediction of how much energy it may have depending on its location, which is or would be unknown. If you knew exactly where it was, you would know very little else about it. What other ways do we have to measure an electron that contradicts this Uncertainty Principle? The only other thing I can think of is that there is no such thing as an electron and what we really have is a one-dimensional string that floats in and out of another 11 dimensions which, depending on its vibration, gives us the appearance of what we call an electron. The problem is, we can't test that. I can't think of any other way of explaining how critical evidence is to our world view and how much little our world view can actually encompass.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    "From that definition alone, I don't see how we could possibly operate in life without a constant consideration of evidence, so that we can arrive at truth."

    I could not agree more, though this is a recent adaptation by me. As a JW I never questioned, never examined the evidence. I called something 'the truth' having explored nothing beyond face value.

    Spending your life examining the evidence behind was is said is not easy, it requires much effort and time. Maybe one day people will respect and acknowledge truths such as evolution as easily as they do today that the earth goes round the sun!Everyone believes it and very little effort or time was required to believe it, yet when it was first discovered I am sure they had conversations regarding astronomy and trajectories, maths and physics that we wouldnt understand.

    I was fooled once, and I am determined to not have 'shame on me' by being fooled twice. Now I examine the evidence, now I explore the facts, now I determine what is true or false. It is a hugely beautiful and rightful approach. It is so empowering, especially having been raised under the power of 7 men in Beooklyn telling me how to intepret science and data.

    All I would like to do, is encourge people here to do the same. Instead of arguing with people here that have not seen the evidence, dont want to look at the evidence, I know we made peace, but as Botch said- reading books and going and getting educated "just wont do" when in reality its the only means of... 'doing'. I would love to come here and debate the intepretation of evidence, but most opposers of what I believe in, deny the evidence outright!

    Of course, I do the same when the likes of Tec tell me their evidence, that they have special guidance from Christ, some describe hearing things, seeing things, feeling things! The evidence I wish to discuss ANYONE can visit, see and feel in a museum or see in a textbook. How can we confirm anything an individual feels in his heart or hears in his mind? The conversation ends there! Only to add that humans are very capable of hearing voices, seeing visions etc, especilly of a spiritual nature. We can even induce these experiences. They are pathological. That is not meant to be offensive, we have the evidence and ability to say it with confidence. We prescribe drugs to help it based on the evidence. We know whats going on in such scenarios right down to the cellular level and the interaction of molecules.

    I have to live my life according to the evidence..... I strongly encourage it. It may explain to those that ponder why I/we left the JWs, why I/we the bible, why I/we left religion and why I/we left god......

    Snare x

  • Etude
    Etude

    snare&racket: As a JW I was initially like you, not questioning pretty much everything. Oh, I asked question. But they were ready for me and I was all too willing to accept. One thing I never questioned was the apparent non-conditional friendships they offered. That was my weakness. But eventually, I realized that in many things there was a little voice inside me which I realize I was suppressing; a little voice that sometimes asked: "Is it really like that?"

    Then Bethel happened. My eyes were opened wider than ever before. But it was after leaving there and starting college that the proverbial nail-in-the-coffin started pounding on the remnants of that reality and moving towards a new one. It was gradual, because even after that started, I still had hopes of going back.

    But now, I've developed a strange, odd and at the same time comforting relationship with uncertainty. Being fooled like you, I decided that there was little to be certain about. That's why I perpetually seek facts and truth without forcing myself to assume what that might be.

    Nevertheless, one of my experiences on this forum has been to partake in very heavy and contentious (yet civil) exchanges with many interesting individuals precisely because of my caution to make certain conclusions where they are not, in my opinion, warranted. I have no idea if I've succeeded in making my point or the degree of effectiveness with which I communicated. Yet it's been a wonderful opportunity to express myself in a way I seldom get to do and to people who are more likely to understand (but not necessarily agree). Whatever the results are, I feel compelled to tell it like I see it. That will never stop. My hope is that if I'm wrong I get to be convinced otherwise. There's a certain kind of thrill for me to face something, an idea, I had never encountered before. I hope you're experience is as satisfactory.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Thank you x

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