Why would anyone think the 7 times of Daniel 4 should have two fulfillments?

by jwfacts 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jwfacts

  Each prophecy in Daniel had only one fulfilment. Why believe inconsistently that Daniel 4:9-32 should have two fulfillments?

  • Daniel 2: An immense image representing kingdoms
  
  
  • Daniel 4: The "seven times" representing what befell Nebuchadnezzar - (and 1914?)
  
  
  • Daniel 5: Writing on the wall foretelling Babylon's immediate destruction
  
  
  • Daniel 7: Four beasts being 4 world powers
  
  
  • Daniel 9: Seventy weeks and the Messiah
  
  
  • Daniel 11: Kings of the North and South

  Daniel 4 was about Nebuchadrezzar behaving as a beast for 7 times. Isn't it good enough that Daniel could interpret a dream that was prophetic of what was to befall the King? What justification is there for Daniel 4 also being an end-time prophecy?
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  jwfacts

  Everything about the Watchtower approach to make Daniel 4 an end time prophecy is a lesson in rhetorical fallacy.

  There no good reason to believe it has two fulfillments, but the onus of proof always end up on proving it is not an end time prophecy, when it should be the other way around.

  The same holds for the year 607. The Watchtower says that 607 is proven by the Bible, so the onus on proof is on others to disprove it. That it incorrect, the onus of proof should be on proving 607 is accurate, which cannot be done.

  It is annoying watching Watchtower apologists arguing for a Scriptural proof of 607, when the Watchtower shows the Scriptures cannot be used to prove 70 years needs to be a literal period.

  "Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a) He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia's greatest domination-when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." Isaiah's Prophecy- Light For All Mankind 1 p. 253
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  cedars

  Thanks for raising this Paul. This is a huge gripe of mine. Part of the reason I find it difficult to devote any serious attention to 607 etc is that the whole premise of the "Gentile Times" understanding is based upon nothing. There is no reason to apply Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 4 to anything other than the king going crazy for seven years.

  Even Daniel said, "ALL this befell Nebuchadnezzar the king." (Daniel 4:28) That should be the end of it - but sadly, it isn't.

  Interestingly, this came up at the meeting I attended during my trip back to the UK. A question was asked as to why we can be confident that this dream had a larger fulfillment in 1914. Typically, any hyperbole contained in the vision was used as a solid basis for giving it a larger fulfilment involving the whole world in the 20th Century. It's such a shame that the existence of an entire organization is essentially propped up on such a tenuous explanation of a verse that is already given a clear fulfilment in the bible itself.

  Cedars
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  Refriedtruth

  Excellent query

  Everything about the Watchtower approach to make Daniel 4 an end time prophecy is a lesson in rhetorical fallacy
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  jwfacts

  Cedars - Part of the reason I find it difficult to devote any serious attention to 607 etc is that the whole premise of the "Gentile Times" understanding is based upon nothing.

  I agree. As much as I admire the effort currently being devoted by Jeffro and the others on Ethos thread, it seems pointless, as it is irrelevant whether the 70 years was a literal period, or the exact time frame.

  I did mention on Ethos thread that Daniel 4 does not have a secondary fulfillment, which he seemed to ignore. Yet to me that was the most important statement on the entire thread, as without that proof, every thing else he has written is just waffle.

  Even as a JW, I used to think of people making doomsday interpretations out of the Bible as wack jobs. There is a never ending supply of exJWs that go off and create some new eschatological fantasy, that seem in need of psychiatric help. Now I read the Watchtower and see it is the same. I really wonder about the people that come up with the interpretations, along with those that vigorously defend them.
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  Phizzy

  As I have posted before this is the very issue that finally got me out, I read Daniel 4 with a mind not pre-programmed by the WT and saw that the whole gentile Times thing was not there, or the 2520 day/years .

  An Elder who came to see why my FS, regular for over 50 years had dropped to nothing, I told him 1914 was not supported in the Bible, he said he would get back to me, he never did, but he was the kind of guy that would have gone away and tried to find proof, elsewhere in Scripture.

  He must have realised that I would have laughed at anything he presented, for he never returned.

  Ethos is due to show us how, using Revelation and circumstantial evidence, 1914 cn be proved.

  I think I may well laugh at his explanation, if he ever tackles the question, he seems to ignore the hard questions.
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  aligot ripounsous

  The two fulfillment prophecies was the great invention of Fred Franz. Thanks to them, he managed to irrigate the JW theology for about 50 years and keep followers in awe about how wonderful and deep God's special purpose for His earthly organisation (morphed lately into an association) was.
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  jwfacts

  Phizzy, I noticed that Ethos made the ridiculous claim that 1914 can be arrived at without the use of Daniel 4, but does not seem to have backed up that statement.
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  jwfacts

  Algot - " The two fulfillment prophecies was the great invention of Fred Franz. "

  Franz didn't invented the concept, Historicism has existed throughout Christianity, became more popular with Protestant reformation, and finally it was Miller that Franz and the other Watchtower leaders are indepted to. However, Fred certainly took it to another level with the amount of baseless parallels that he came up with.
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  Refriedtruth

  There are 2 faces/facets that make up the Watchtower dogma.

  1 William Miller Adventist 'great disappointment' spin off of which Jehovah's Witnesses are the spiritual descendants.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/132920/1/THIS-IS-THE-MAN-WHO-MADE-IT-ALL-HAPPEN

  2 Charles T Russell's pagan occult pyramidology predictions

  The point I am making is that there is more to it than just 607/1914 math to the Watchtowers creed dogma it's a legacy of William Miller and all those guys.