Why would anyone think the 7 times of Daniel 4 should have two fulfillments?

by jwfacts 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    Jwfacts: " I did mention on Ethos thread that Daniel 4 does not have a secondary fulfillment, which he seemed to ignore. Yet to me that was the most important statement on the entire thread, as without that proof, every thing else he has written is just waffle."

    I saw your comment Paul and thought it was an excellent point. If they haven't got 607BCE as a starting point and the convoluted '7 Times' explanations for what they say was the 'appointed times of the Gentiles' that Jesus talked of then there is no 1914. Seeing as it's almost 100 years since 1914 they've had to make up an 'overlapping' generation to mak it all fit. Now they say they don't know the day or the hour (last weeks WT study). They should just forget the whole thing altogether! OOps.. I forgot... if they did that they'd have to forget the FDS appearing in 1919.. that wouldn't do would it?

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Actually, some of us have suggested that 1919 is going to "replace" 1914, in the sense that 1919 is a separately-derived date that does not rely on 1914. It's sufficient for the WT to say, "Jesus' reign began some time in recent history and he inspected his household and identified his faithful servant in 1919", if they ever want to drop the 1914 teaching.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Interesting point, but I think you have to back off the WTS a bit here simply because of Ezekiel 4:6 which notes the formula of "a day for a year."

    "A day for a year"?

    Now that reference alone inspires a double application. You know? How is a "day for a year" going to ever be applied? Problem is, once you apply "a day for a year" to one prophecy, then you have created the logical context for applying it to ALL the prophecies.

    Now look how that is fundamentally confirmed. Let's say the "70 weeks". That is 490 days. Clearly this reference the coming of the messiah after 69 weeks. The messiah did not appear 483 days after Jerusalem began to be rebuilt. He appeared in 29 CE. Now is that relevant to the "day for a year"? What if 483 days is really 483 years? So we ask, as part of "proof in the pudding", whether or not the appearance of Christ in 29 CE in any way is connected to 483 years? Well, per the VAT4956 and the Bible, the 1st of Cyrus occurs in 455 BCE, which is when the Jews first began to rebuild in the Fall. That is, the VAT4956 confirms year 37 of Neb2 to fall originally in 511 BCE. The SK400 confirms year 7 to fall in 541 BCE, the same dating! That means 455 BCE was the original 1st year of Cyrus. That is when the "70 weeks" begin. If so, then the messiah should have appeared 483 days later, which he did not. But if we apply "a day for a year" formula, did Jesus appear 483 years after 455 BCE? That is, in 29 CE? Answer. YES!

    So if the "70 weeks" prophecy clearly was meant to be fulfilled in connection with "a day for a year", then, of course, there is going to be an obvious academic rush to apply "a day for a year" to all the other chronology prophecies in Daniel. That means the "7 times" prophecy which converts "7 times" to 2520 years.

    So even if we see this fulfillment somehow not being fulfilled, you can't blame anyone for making the application because it is not an inappropriate application outside what the Bible itself requires, which is a fulfillment of "a day for a year."

    So in all honesty and to be fair, you can't really in this case blame the WTS for converting days to years if it's right there in the Bible.

    So, in other words, we should ask: Did the WTS on their own decide to convert a day for a year? OR Did they get this idea from the scriptures themselves?

    So you see? In this case, they sort of had no choice? Right? "A day for a year" has to be explored. But when you do, it turns out to be accurate.

    Same with the "7 times". Unfortunately, the WTS was deceived by the revisionism of the Persian Period and ended up with a distorted date for the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE so they think Christ returned invisibly in 1914. The correct date is 529 BCE, which means Christ was to return in 1992, which he did! He actually did! I'm a personal witness to the return in that date! That is only possible when you apply "a day for a year" formula.

    So really, folks, in all honesty, there's no choice. Ignoring "a day for a year" thus is rather dishonest or naieve. You can't blame the WTS for applying "a day for a year" when it is in the Bible. Sorry. But more importantly, the "proof is in the pudding." The fulfillments do convert a day for a year in all these prophecies!

    1. The 70 weeks shows Christ appears 483 years after 455 BCE, the 1st of Cyrus. Fulfilled.

    2. The "1335 days" prophecy shows Christ appearing 45 years after the final return in 1947, in 1992.

    3. The "7 times" prophecy, 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem which JWs incorrectly date to 607 BCE dates his return in 1914, but the correct date of 529 BCE dats his return in 1992, just as #2 above.

    All these apply the "day for a year" formula and it works! So a double fulfillment and converting "a day for a year" is very much fundamental in scripture and correct.

    So GET PAST IT, folks. There is a double fulfillment here, unless you're blind, which I suppose, I'm finding, is often the case. But it is voluntary blindness: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, right?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    marked

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    The book of Daniel's message is simple. The eventual demise of mortal earthly beastly world powers as opposed to Gods eternal and predestined kingdom of love that is in his Son.

    The New Creation (uncut my human hands) started at the death of this old visible earthly system in Christ's death, and it's renewal in HIS resurrected power. ALL things in the heavens and earth are now being reconciled to The Father in Christ.

    Our baptism symbolises our active participation in Christs death and Resurrection every day (surrender and empowerment) is the path to the eternal New Heavens and New Earth already available.

    Shalom

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    The book of Daniel is very complex, it reveals some very deep heavenly events as well as earthly. Parts of the book of Daniel have been removed, but I think the catholic version still has them. The extended version of the fiery furnace, and the chapter about the dragon. If it was removed because people thought it was a literal dragon and so it must obviously be not true, they removed some very important things.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Apognophos:

    Actually, some of us have suggested that 1919 is going to "replace" 1914, in the sense that 1919 is a separately-derived date that does not rely on 1914.

    1919 is derived from 1914. Whilst the Society will most likely focus more on 1919, they still require 1914 (unless/until they can invent some other way of arriving at 1919).

    I've said previously:

    The year 1914 is essential for several core doctrines held by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Significantly, they regard their interpretation of Jesus’ ‘faithful slave’ illustration (Matthew 24:45-47) as identifying the Watch Tower Society as God’s channel of ‘spiritual truth’, and the time of the identification of this ‘slave class’ is dependant on the year 1914, derived from their interpretation of parts of the book of Revelation. Specifically, Revelation 11:2-3 mentions periods of 42 months and 1,260 days (both 3½ years). The Watch Tower Society applies this period literally, from December 1914 to May 1918^, after which they apply the 3½ days of Revelation 11:11 figuratively, identifying these periods with their preaching work during World War I, followed by a period of imprisonment of early Watch Tower Society members in 1918. They believe that after their release from prison in 1919 that they were approved as Jesus’ ‘slave class’.
  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    Actually, there were other scriptures from Daniel that were thought to have fulfillment- in the Jazz Age! From 'Your Will Be Done On Earth (1958) pg. 371:

    PROPHETIC "TIMES" AND "DAYS":
    "SEVEN TIMES" or "the appointed times of the nations" (Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, RS; Luke 21:24): Began in 7th lunar month (Ethanim-September-October), 607 B.C.
    Ended in 7th lunar month (September-October), A.D. 1914
    "TIMES, TWO TIMES, AND HALF A TIME" (Daniel 7:25; 12:7, RS):
    Began in first half of November, 1914
    Ended May 7, 1918, at arrest of Watch Tower Society's officers and companions
    (Compare the 42 months of Revelation 11:2.)
    "A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS" (Daniel 12:11, La):
    Began the end of January, 1919
    Ended the first half of September, 1922, at the second Cedar Point (Ohio) convention
    "THE THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FIVE DAYS" (Daniel 12:12, AT):
    Began the first half of September, 1922, at the second Cedar Point (Ohio) convention
    Ended in the month of May, 1926, at the London (England) International Convention
    "TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED EVENINGS AND MORNINGS" (Daniel 8:14, RS):
    Began in the month of May, 1926, at the London (England) International Convention (May 25-31) Ended on October 15, 1932, with the official publication of notice in The Watchtower

    Lol, is that weird, or what?

  • mP
    mP

    2 Charles T Russell's pagan occult pyramidology predictions

    The point I am making is that there is more to it than just 607/1914 math to the Watchtowers creed dogma it's a legacy of William Miller and all those guys.

    ,mP_>

    Russel was being true and honest to xians true origins. The BIble is nothing more than astrotheology and Jesus is the Sun. GO ask the Catholic church they have worshipping the birt of the Sun, and all xians also celebrate the day when the sun overcomes the cold of winter in easter. Even stinky JWS observe this.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Actually, there were other scriptures from Daniel that were thought to have fulfillment- in the Jazz Age! From 'Your Will Be Done On Earth (1958) pg. 371:

    But they are all dependent on 1914 as a starting point.

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