Why would anyone think the 7 times of Daniel 4 should have two fulfillments?

by jwfacts 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Rob Crompton
    Rob Crompton

    The idea that Nebuchadnezzar's seven years of madness represented the 2520 years of the "Gentile Times" was part of Russell's belief system. But there was a huge difference, because Russell did not believe that the tree which was cut down and restrained from growth in the vision, represented the idea of God's kingdom being in abeyance. It stood for, first Nebuchadnezzar and, second, humanity in general. So the end of the Gentile times was to be marked by humanity coming to their senses (like Neb did) and acknowledging God's sovereignty. So, Tree = mad King Neb = degraded humanity. A fairish consistency.

    In the post-Russell make-over the end of the GT is marked by the setting up of the Kingdom of God in heaven. So now, Tree = mad King Neb = dormant Kingdom of God.

    In other words Neb, the king of Babylon (which represents Satan's Org) stands for the Kingdom of God. Does that seem just a little bit silly? But silly is what Joe Rutherford and his minders were good at.

    Rob Crompton

    http://snigsfoot.blogspot.com

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Rob, that is an interesting point that I was not aware of. I am interested in quotes highlighting the difference if anyone has time to find them.

    I am struggling to find any sensible justification by the Watchtower to show the prophecy should have two fulfillments. The reasoning is either circular, or "it must have two meanings because we want it to". Here is the main article I can find.

    ***gochap.5pp.83-89pars.29-41ForetellingtheTimeforWorldRulership***

    Is that, however, all there is to the matter? There is no basis for doubt that Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the heaven-high tree was prophetic, it being inspired by Jehovah God. But is the dream’s fulfillment limited to that ancient fulfillment on the person of one man, King Nebuchadnezzar, for him to learn a lesson regarding rulership? Is it through his personal experience that the purport of Jehovah’s dealing with him is achieved, namely, “that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind”? (Daniel 4:17) By setting up over the kingdom of mankind “even the lowliest one of mankind” does the Most High God set up over mankind the lowest grade of rulership over mankind? Evidently not! (Daniel 4:36, 37) For the “people living” in our momentous twentieth century, Nebuchadnezzar’s dream must have a further and more far-reaching fulfillment. It does!

    30 Ancient facts certify the first fulfillment of the dream of the king of Babylon. How do the later facts establish the larger and complete fulfillment of that same dream? Well, Nebuchadnezzar, who for the time being back there was pictured by the massive tree, was ruler of the Babylonian Empire. So he symbolized rulership on a world scale, having worldwide recognition. Likewise, the “tree” that was illustrated by him stood for rulership on a scale grander than that held by the king of Babylon. At that time, what rulership or dominion was greater than that of Emperor Nebuchadnezzar, which stood without a rival on earth? Only the rulership of the one whom Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged to be “the Most High,” “the King of the heavens.” (Daniel 4:34, 37) For that reason, the heaven-high, life-sustaining tree of the dream symbolized the UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY of the Most High, Jehovah God, particularly in its relationship with our earth. This Universal Sovereignty is eternal, “to time indefinite,” for all generations.

    31 Such a meaning attached to the “tree” raises questions in our minds, does it not? Yes. For example, how could such a “tree” ever be chopped down? And this at the command of the Universal Sovereign, the Most High God himself? How is it set up again? God’s own written Word, the Holy Bible, explains.

    32 For a long period of time Jehovah’s Universal Sovereignty was represented here on earth. How? Where? When? This was by means of the kingdom that he established over his chosen people, the twelve tribes of Israel. Particularly was this so when Jehovah’s anointed one, King David, was made king over all twelve tribes of Israel, after which he moved his capital city to Jerusalem, which he had captured from the pagan Jebusites. That was in 1070 B.C.E.

    33 In that same year King David had the sacred Ark of the Covenant of Jehovah brought into the city and placed in a tent pitched near his royal palace. Thus, as it were, Jehovah began to reign in Israel’s capital Jerusalem, and the Israelite king was said to sit upon “Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chronicles 29:23; 16:1-31) Repeatedly King David acknowledged Jehovah to be his heavenly King, the real Ruler of Israel. (Psalms 5:2; 24:7-10; 68:24; 145:1) Certainly, then, the kingdom centered at Jerusalem with David and his royal descendants sitting there on “Jehovah’s throne” represented Jehovah’s Universal Sovereignty with reference to our earth.—2 Chronicles 13:5, 8.

    34 Logically that expression of Jehovah’s Universal Sovereignty as exercised through King David and his royal successors at Jerusalem was what was pictured by the immense tree seen in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. In the dream, that all-dominating tree was chopped down. True to that dream, Divine Sovereignty as exercised through the line of Davidic kings at Jerusalem was chopped down, toppled, put out of operation. When? In 607 B.C.E., when Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon brought destruction upon Jerusalem and its temple and carried off its last enthroned king, Zedekiah of David’s family, into exile to die there. Jehovah himself had the symbolic tree of sovereignty chopped down, for he himself used Nebuchadnezzar as his “servant” to bring about this overthrow. Jehovah himself took the responsibility for overturning this visible expression of his sovereignty toward our earth.—Jeremiah 25:8-11, 17-29; Ezekiel 21:22-27.

    35 At that time the bands of divine restraint as pictured by the bands of iron and copper were put around the remaining rootstock of the divine sovereignty as exercised through a royal descendant of King David. No royal sprout could come forth from this rootstock for the growing again of the divine sovereignty exercised through a Davidic king. For how long was this debased appearance of Jehovah’s Universal Sovereignty to continue? For “seven times,” which were prophetically illustrated by the “seven years” of Nebuchadnezzar’s dethronement for him to live like a beast of the field. So, how much time do “seven times” cover?

    36 A “time” or lunar “year” used in connection with Bible prophecy averaged 360 days, that is, twelve lunar months averaging 30 days each. (Compare Genesis 7:11 through 8:4.) The “seven times” or “seven years” would therefore amount to 7 times 360 days, or 2,520 days. Are those 2,520 days to be understood literally in this case? Well, seven lunar years or 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. and the leaving of her domain in the land of Judah desolate, Jehovah’s Universal Sovereignty with respect to our earth was not reestablished, was it? No! In the year 600 B.C.E. the surviving Israelites were still exiles in Babylon, Jerusalem and the land of Judah still lay desolate, and the Babylonian Empire was still the world power of the day. It was not till sixty-three years later, or in 537 B.C.E., that the exiled Israelites were given freedom by Babylon’s conqueror to leave, and reoccupy their beloved homeland. But, even then, the theocratic kingdom of the house of David was not set up again at Jerusalem.

    37 The Medo-Persian Empire had now taken over world control as the Fourth World Power of Bible prophecy, and Cyrus the Great, the Persian, was emperor. So Zerubbabel, a legal and natural heir to David’s throne, was made merely the governor of the Persian province of Judah. Medo-Persia corresponded with the silver breasts and arms of the metallic image seen in the inspired dream that the prophet Daniel had to recall to Nebuchadnezzar’s mind and to interpret to him. (Daniel 2:31, 32, 39) According to that same dream and its interpretation, Gentile world control was to be exercised next by the copper-like Grecian World Power and then by the ironlike Roman Empire with an outgrowth therefrom in the form of the British-American Dual World Power of modern centuries. First after that, would Jehovah’s Universal Sovereignty (as pictured by the mountain) and the kingdom (pictured by the cut-out stone) interfere with the line of Gentile world powers. (Daniel 2:32-35, 44, 45) This brings us into our own twentieth century!

    38 It is very evident, therefore, that the “seven times” of 2,520 days, as measured against the world-power “image,” from head to foot, must stand for something longer than the seven literal years of Nebuchadnezzar’s beastlike conduct, out in the field. So each of these 2,520 days must be treated according to the Bible rule: “A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you.” (Ezekiel 4:6; compare Numbers 14:34.) This would mean that the “seven times” of domination of the earth by Gentile world powers without interference from God’s kingdom would extend for 2,520 years from the desolating of the land of Judah (including Jerusalem) by the Babylonians. That number of years from the middle of the seventh lunar month (or Tishri 15) of 607 B.C.E. leads up to when? To Tishri 15, or October 4/5, of 1914 C.E.

    39 At that time Jehovah God the Almighty would loosen the iron and copper bands around the symbolic rootstock of Universal Sovereignty. Thus he would permit a royal “sprout” to grow up from it for the reestablishment of His Universal Sovereignty toward all the earth. (Job 14:7-9; Isaiah 11:1, 2) This took place in the birth of the “man child” government, foretold in Revelation 12:5-10 (AV;NW), which government was to “shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.” In Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the world-power “image,” this event was pictured by the cutting of the “stone” out of the mountain with a view to its destroying the world-power “image.” (Daniel 2:34, 35) What a meaningful way that was of marking the end of the “appointed times of the nations,” the end of the “times of the Gentiles,” as foretold by Jesus Christ in Luke 21:24!—NW;AV.

    40 From then on, the royal government that was represented by ancient Jerusalem under the kingship of David’s royal family was no longer to be “trampled on,” “trodden down,” by Gentile world powers. It was to trample them!

    41 In view of all the foregoing, the Universal Governor, who knows the end from the beginning, foretold more than just Nebuchadnezzar’s time for being restored to the throne of the Babylonian World Power. Jehovah God foretold, simultaneously, the time for enforcing his own world rulership by a reasserting of his rightful Universal Sovereignty toward our earth. Having determined the time for this, we are now poised for considering the Chief Agent whom the Universal Sovereign Jehovah uses in this behalf. Shall we do so?

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Here is some more reasoning, yet even weaker than that above.

    *** ka chap. 1 pp. 11-12 par. 11 The “Thousand Years”—Not a FalseHope ***

    Little did he know that that period of “seven times” in which he proved his unfitness to rule were prophetic of a greater period of “seven times” of larger duration, “the times of the Gentiles.” Little did he know that during those larger “seven times” five world powers would dominate the earth—the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Grecian, the Roman and the modern-time British-American. Little did Nebuchadnezzar know that those “seven times,” comprising all together 2,520 years, began in the year of his desolating of Jerusalem and its temple and would end in the year that would see the world of mankind embroiled in the first world war—1914 C.E.

    *** w09 8/15 pp. 4-5 par. 10 Everlasting Life on Earth—A God-GivenHope ***

    Jehovah sometimes gives a message to an individual that also has a broader application for mankind in general. This can be seen from Daniel’s prophecy involving Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream about the chopping down of an immense tree. (Dan. 4:10-27) While that dream had a fulfillment in connection with Nebuchadnezzar, it pointed to something far greater. It indicated that divine sovereignty toward the earth expressed by a kingdom in the line of King David would be manifested again after a period of 2,520 years, beginning in 607 B.C.E. God’s sovereignty toward our globe began to be asserted anew with the installation of Jesus Christ as heavenly King in the year 1914. Just think of how Kingdom rule will soon fulfill the hopes of obedient mankind!

    *** tp73 chap. 7 pp. 74-75 pars. 7-8 When Will the Foretold WorldDestruction Come? ***

    After seven years the king’s sanity returned, he acknowledged the superiority of God’s rulership, and he himself was restored to his throne. (Daniel 4:20-37) All this had a greater meaning, however, and for that reason it is recorded in the Bible.

    8 This greater meaning relates to a rulership from which all living things on earth would benefit.

  • life is to short
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    In other words Neb, the king of Babylon (which represents Satan's Org) stands for the Kingdom of God. Does that seem just a little bit silly? But silly is what Joe Rutherford and his minders were good at.

    I've made a similar point often as well. From another thread:

    "The incapacitation of a Gentile ruler is supposed to symbolize a period of Gentile hegemony over the earthly representative of God's kingdom (the Gentile times), and not just any ruler but the very Gentile ruler (Nebuchadnezzar) who overthrew God's earthly organization (Judah)....The Gentile ruler Nebuchadnezzar symbolizes the very thing he destroyed whereas his own seven-year humiliation is supposed to symbolize Gentile supremacy, starting with his own rule!"

  • extractor
    extractor

    Ahh! All those WT articles on such things are so mind-numbingly convoluted it MUST be intentional... to get the R & F to start reading and just say, "Uh, screw it. I'll never be able to decipher this so I'll just accept it."

    does the Most High God set up over mankind the lowest grade of rulership over mankind? Evidently not!

    I hate their use of "evidently" & I hate their stupid, unnecessary exclaimation marks.

    End of rant.

  • Rob Crompton
    Rob Crompton

    Russell on the Gentile Times/seven times of Daniel 4:

    "Unless it was thus to foreshadow the degradation and the duration of the Gentile Times, we know of no reason for the recording this scrap of the history of a heathen king. That hisseven years of degradation fitlyillustrated human debasement, is a fact; that God has promised a restitution of earth's dominion after humanity haslearned certain great lessons, is also a fact; and that the seven symbolic times (2520 years) end at the exact point when mankind will have learned its own degration and present inability to rule the world to advantage, and will be ready for God's kingdom and dominion, is a third fact." Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, vol 2, page 97

    Russell had several other derivations of 1914 and the other dates of his elaborate end-time calendar, none of which survived the incovenient failure of events to work out as expected. The first three volumes of Studies in the Scriptures set it all out.

    Robert Crompton

    http://snigsfoot.blogspot.com

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    As much as I admire the effort currently being devoted by Jeffro and the others on Ethos thread, it seems pointless, as it is irrelevant whether the 70 years was a literal period, or the exact time frame.

    I don't expect Ethos and other staunch apologists to suddently become convinced of reality.

    I respond mainly for the benefit of other readers. And because it amuses me.

  • biometrics
    biometrics

    Phizzy, I noticed that Ethos made the ridiculous claim that 1914 can be arrived at without the use of Daniel 4, but does not seem to have backed up that statement.

    Only other way I've seen to arrive at 1914 was using pyramidology by Charles Taze Russell - who said:

    "So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward . And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject..." (Charles Taze Russell, Thy Kingdom Come, Studies In The Scriptures, vol. 3, 1910 edition).

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Interesting answers, thanks.

    Rob, that is a great quote, and it makes more sense to compare the debasement of humanity with the debasement of Nebuchadnezzar. It is a 180 degree change of what is taught now, since Russell's interpretation was that people would get better after 1914, whereas now it is said things are so much worse after 1914.

    Biometrics, I don't think Ethos is that ignorant as to try to resurrect the pyramid teachings. I am thinking he may be linking to the Last Days to some random quote that, " Yes, the world really changed in 1914! " Awake! 1981 May 8 p.8

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