by patio34 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
Hi Pat,
If a lawyer or policeman tried this line attack with a person....it'd be thrown out of court. Shame that an almighty god is not as merciful as a judge (who may or may not be corrupt anyway.)
Hey PeacefulPet,
That's a good post you made - and a lot of truth to it, unless you believe the Genesis account totally.....like fundamentalists do. An efficient way to explain *stuff* to nomads, etc. A way of creating one's sense of self, a history.
waiting
KJV, you said
Yes, me thinks! If you look at the first dinosaurs and mammals that were on the earth they were extremely ugly and wierd. God then made improvements. The question is: "Will God improve man or wipe us out like he did the dinosaurs and put something else on the earth?"
LOL! The early life on earth was (were?) ugly!
Island Woman,
ancienct Greeks and in addition changed their names to Zeus, Hermes, Athena etc., the account would then become what it is: a tale of two cities- man and the gods. And much more interesting and revealing I think.That's so true, i'm reading a couple of books on that very theme now. It's amazing ...
Peaceful Pete, what you say makes more sense than trying to really believe such a fairy tale.
JT, it is pretty pathetic to watch religionists try to explain away all the inconsistencies. Sometimes they get all emotional because it's impossible.
Thanks Sargon and Waiting for your answers. Edengate makes a lot of sense. And in the USA, such a case would be thrown out of court...probably.
Darn good topic...
That's the big question, why would God allow Adam and Eve to be tempted by a powerful demon they didn't know existed, and then call this a fair test?
And if Satan was God's mortal enemy, then the question is even more valid.
If you were a famous architect, for example, wouldn't you protect your sketches from an enemy you knew liked to destroy or steal your work?
Okay, you might allow your architectural rival to make a few revisions to your grand project in order to prove him wrong. But if you took the time for this experiment, you'd also likely have time, after you fired the evil intern, to fix all the problems. Stray beams and unstable walls can be amended. You don't blame the walls for allowing themselves to be placed in error.
Plus, we're not talking about a few stray pieces of wood in a building but human lives. These are supposed to be important given the anthropocentric nature of Judeo-Christian doctrine.
So who is in control of the outcome? Who is responsible?
God? Satan? Humans?
Whereas almost every moral issue is cast as black and white, here the lines are blurred to make the doctrines seem to make sense.
cellomould
On a related vein,why has God delayed sooo long (even using Bible chronology 6000 yrs)?The WT.adopted an idea of an issue of universal sovereignty from the Seventh Day Adventists.And as the story goes God is delaying for three reasons: 1 to demonstrate that He was not to blame for the sin of man because his design was capable of perfect obediece.The WT has said this issue was closed by the perfect obedience of Jesus so this can not apply to the last 2000 yrs. 2 To allow man to come to "the height of his acheivements" to prevent any charge that He intervined before they could implement a better system than His.This is meaningless rhetoric,what is "the height of human achievement?"As soon as men invented spears he used them on each other,when he invented wheels he made war machines,when he discovered the secrets of the atoms he bombed his neighbor.Any point in history was called the "height of human achievement",because men have always and will always grow in understanding of the world.If He wanted to make the point that men misuse what they learn, he could have ended this millenia ago.This 2nd excuse for God's inaction will always seem to apply as we are always in awe(terror) at what men have achieved.Therefore it is meaninglss rhetoric. 3 To allow each of us personally to prove our alliegence dispite the suffering He allows .Again this excuse has no end in sight.There will always be new ones to be tested,so this offers no explanation for His not ending this long ago.And why should I need to know how to endure suffering if he plans to end suffering forever?Is suffering the only way to endow us with the desirable qualities he demands?Did he then intend to put the screws to Adam even if he did not sin?
My point is this,attempts have been made for centuries to excuse this omnipotent God from action in behalf of the suffering.These modern attempts of the WT.are the best humans have come up with, yet they are shallow and impossible to defend if analyzed. The creation story was a very early attempt to exhonerate God from guilt while retaining his all powerful statis.And of course the people wished to believe their God was worthy of worship,so it welcomed the shift in blame for all the world's troubles on two people.
pete,
I always enjoy your posts but this time you fell into the habit of forgetting to format. Paragraphs are such beautiful things!
Very nice comments about shifting the blame for suffering onto two people: God and Satan. How convenient, eh?
Satan is a modern way to account for all the shit so that God's shit can be proven not to stink.
cellomould
"Money walks through the door, and memory flies out the window" Dream Theater, 6:00
Cellumoid, good points. Satan, according to the Bible, was this mighty, superintelligent creature and God allowed him to pit his wits vs. these brand new creatures, who knew squat. Like putting Johnny Cochran vs. a 4-yr-old?
Pete, very good dismantling of the WT 'logic!' Plus, other creationists'. It removes the rationale that is offered for the inaction of god for thousands of years. I'm going to save your post.
Pat
Cello said:
"That's the big question, why would God allow Adam and Eve to be tempted by a powerful demon they didn't know existed, and then call this a fair test?"
And why would God do this if he already knew what the outcome would be? That is not a test.
When we were kids, we used to give the youngest things to eat, like onion, garlic, lemon, knowing that he'd bite then make a big funny face, maybe start crying, then we'd laugh our heads off. Then a couple of weeks later we'd do it again. We knew he couldn't resist, and it wasn't until he was a little older, wiser that he was able to say no.
I was going to make a point but thinking of this fond memory has me laughing all over again.
Here is something I am toying with today, it's kind of on topic. If I could get some feedback on it might help to clarify my thoughts. I admit I'm still in the early stages of this line of thinking.
consider the serpent, this was no little serpent, the Hebrew can be translated dragon, leviathan, or sea monster. The first thing the dragon said to them was "did God say you shall not eat......" A veiled threat, God said do not eat I say eat. A question can you trust God? Adam was silent and the woman answered saying, we cannot eat or touch the tree in the middle of the garden. Satan calls God a lire "you will not die" and implies that God fears her eating of the fruit "God knows............you will be like God,"
the women desired in the flesh what God did not desire for her.
consider Adam alive and clothed in the holy sprit throw the breath of God and charged to tend and protect the garden.
now were was Adam in all this? why did he remain silent?
i think that he was afraid to suffer, that his faith in God faltered faced with this leviathan satan he could have tolled Satan to get away from them and trusted in God. he could have protected his wife and the tree in the center of the garden. even after his wife eat of the fruit Adam could have trusted in God but he gave into the flesh in his fear to suffer.
(Matthew 16:21-23) consider Jesus calling Peter Satan because Peter didn't want Jesus to suffer, Peter wanted an easy way. Jesus said a stern NO i will keep my charge.
the eyes of both were open and they new they were naked. naked because they were dead in the sprit, no longer clothed in glory.
satan was cursed but Adam and eve were not. eve's was punished with pain but given the love and rule of her husband, whose protection was lacking when faced with satan.
Adam was given to care for a now cursed ground, among thorns and thistles Adam would suffer not for the glory of God but for his very bread.
God removed the fig leafs and brought soft skins, Jesus cursed the fig tree and brought us to be clothed, throw the breath of Christ, in the glory of the holy sprit once more.
One Question. Is a God all-powerful if he cannot cause good to come from every action?
Will said
And why would God do this if he already knew what the outcome would be? That is not a test.
Everyone knows it's poor form to deliberately try to bait someone into a crime. Plus, it seems to me that to try and tempt someone (lure them) into crime is really deceitful and trying to harm that person.
Gotta run--at work.
Actually, man was the smartest thing alive. Remember that the second chapter of Genesis tells us that man was the first thing created. Then Jehovah created the animals, plants, and finally, since the wise god Jehovah could not find a mate for Adam among the animals, he created Eve from Adam´s rib bone. Since the snake was an animal, it was created after man (but before woman.) It flows that the snake had more experience than Eve, but less than Adam. The snake was an animal, not a demon, unless that this demon was so smart that it fooled Jehovah into believing that he was a snake. How could then the Jewish war god punish Satan to crawl into its belly and eat dust? Remember that at those times snakes ate vegetation only. Same as T-rex and other dinasours. Now thanks to J, snakes, as everyone knows, eat dust. No need to worry about a snake bite anymore since J´s punishment to snakes. Animals were smart then, How could J not notice that something was fishy when the humans told him that a snake spoke? J punished a snake, not good ol' Lucifer
JRP
Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
Nietzsche
