As a JW, I heard all the demon stories, and believed them. After 30 years of being a JW, I came to believe they were all hype. I was a garage sale junkie, yet not one thing I ever bought was demonized. I was around when the Smurf modern urban legend came around and had to comfort my daughter, who was terrorized by her grandmother telling her that her toy was demonized. I didnt believe it, but we had to throw it away anyway. I believe the human mind is strange think and I think many people create these fantasies in their own disturbed brains.
So, I had a thought about wicked spirits lately...
by sd-7 47 Replies latest jw friends
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sd-7
First of all, I don't even drink, so no, it wasn't Jack Daniels. But that's a good one. I guess. Maybe I'd find it more amusing if I actually drank. I wonder what my drunken threads here would sound like...would be interesting to find out. Or not.
Apognophos, I would certainly agree that some of my logic wasn't so good. But I don't really agree with your logic, either, to be honest. I don't think it would be better for us if we merely stopped questioning the existence of God or something. I mean, history has a long stretch where mankind was ignorant of things--many things that were, wow, supposedly God's creations--that had they known them, a lot of lives could have been saved and the quality of life could have improved for everyone. Instead, people were getting burned at the stake because faith was more important than asking hard questions.
I did misspeak in saying that God/whoever 'aimed' at Earth in sending the demons here--obviously it wasn't a matter of aim, since it was kind of a fight, one that one person allegedly saw. But considering that probably ancient men thought God and heaven were just past the clouds, this story makes more sense in that light.
Satan was once able to roam the Earth and to enter heaven at will. Then he was barred from heaven in a war with Jesus. Where else is he going to spend his time now? There's nowhere else for him to go in order to interfere with God's purpose.
Therein lies the problem. We know the universe is much larger than Earth and heaven. There's as much reason to think he could go and screw up some other part of the divine plan a million parsecs from here. There's a huge vacuum of information to go on, so it leads to the assumption that somehow man is so important to the being that created an entire universe that his archenemy just has to be here to interfere.
So, in other words, you won't test out whether they really exist... you'll just feign disinterest and assume they don't? It sounds like they have you right where they want you. After all, if they do show themselves to you, who's to say you might not go running right back to the Witnesses, scared straight? It would be a gamble on their part to respond to you at all. Best to let bygones be bygones, for both sides' sakes.
They have me right where they want me? And you would know this, how, exactly? Based on assumptions of your own about them that you wouldn't even have had you never read the Bible. If they did show themselves to me, I'd still know that the JWs don't have the truth, and I'd be on my own, same as I truthfully was at the beginning and just didn't know it. Perhaps we'd have a coffee or something, play chess. Whatever.
you incorrectly stated that God does not protect his servants individually
You mean to say that JWs incorrectly stated this, as I was merely repeating their viewpoint for the sake of argument, since it is not my viewpoint.
I'm not even going to get into the Adam and Eve stuff. There's not even any indication they had any idea of the issues going on there, all they did was eat some fruit, man. Why drag everybody through this drama over a fruit tree? You want to talk elementary. That's elementary. Petty dictatorship at its finest.
Whenever there's a questionable element to it all, it's got to be some kind of invisible test from above, right? Neither of them wants to disrupt the test, so neither says anything--it's got to be a test! So their existence is proven by their absence of communication. And their absence of communication somehow provides some proof as to what they're thinking. Wow. It's amazing. God really does work in mysterious ways. You've got me going here...
--sd-7
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Twitch
First of all, I don't even drink, so no, it wasn't Jack Daniels. But that's a good one. I guess. Maybe I'd find it more amusing if I actually drank. I wonder what my drunken threads here would sound like...would be interesting to find out. Or not.
just tryin' to chill it a bit; no need to see it that way and wouldn't recommend it. but it would be interesting to find out what a life less serious is like. or not ;)
PS I used to believe in invisible spirits and all that. Not so much anymore. Your mileage may vary.
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smiddy
In my early days as a witness mid 1960`s after retiring to bed I noticed my alarm clock`s ticking was getting progressively louder by the minute , I thought demons ! So I prayed to Jehovah ,and the ticking seemed to recede ,then I thought am I imagining this ? so stopped praying and the ticking started to get progressively louder again , so again I thought this is the demons and I prayed even harder and the ticking receded back to a normal sound .
After 33 years a witness , leaving almost 20 yrs ago now ,and being on this board a few years , I consider myself an atheist with a spiritual tendency .
The bible ? NO .Sacred writings ? NO Any religion this world has ? NO I think on this point I have to agree with Rutherfords comment "Religion is a snare and a racket" and then he went on to organise this racket as a religion ? Go figure
smiddy
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StoneWall
partial quote of sd-7
a few times it took the shape of a naked woman and we did some really unmentionable things.
If that particular demon ever shows up again can you send them/it my way.
Edited to add: It sounds in the description above that it was a succubus (female demon). I'm going to try and post some pics and if it looks like any of them, send my way. It's only fair that if the angels(demons) of Noah's day materialized male bodies to be with the female humans then turn about is fair play.
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still thinking
steve2...I have to agree with that.
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gorgia
I don't know whether demons are 'real' or not, but I remember wishing they were when I was little. All the children in my cong were obsessed with the 'demon question' ie - "All the adults say they're real - so where are they?" We used to huddle together outside the KH at night, invoking the demons - the obligatory "Jehovah Jehovah Jehovah" mantra at the ready should one materialise. Needless to say, one never did.
I also recall the taboo subject in my family of my cousin's collection of figurines; apparently they became 'demonised', paraded around about her bedroom floor and were thrown away forthwith!
My mother and I always felt the thrill of rebellion when we went op-shopping, and often wondered 'who' we were bringing home after a purchase, but nothing vaguely paranormal ever happened there either.
I was obviously a bit of an exception in my imaginative excitement though - I remember other JW children bed-wetting, having recurrent nightmares and being petrified of the dark due to all the JDub talk of demons.
My brothers both had the aforementioned symptoms; one of my brothers ended up sharing my room for years due to his absolute conviction that a demon once visisted him in his sleep and woke him up, it hovered horizontally above him - he must of been about six years old at the time. He is a grown man now and still very frightened of the thought of demons; once I had the Harry Potter movie on my television when he arrived at my house and he wouldn't come inside until I'd turned it off. My other brother from about age four believed he had a demonised owl that sat atop his bedroom curtains and would stare at him as he tried to go to sleep.
gorgia
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jamiebowers
@sd-7:
First of all, I don't even drink, so no, it wasn't Jack Daniels. But that's a good one. I guess. Maybe I'd find it more amusing if I actually drank. I
wonder what my drunken threads here would sound like...would be interesting to find out. Or not.
LOL! Make sure to drink copious amounts of chocolate milk before writing your next post!
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PSacramento
A different view:
Demons and Angels are differentnames for the same members of that species, a species that is far older than ours and was the first species to be created by God.
As they evolved and became close to God in likeness ( very powerful, virutally immortal, able to manipulate energy and matter, travel inbetween dimensions -theri world and ours), our species came along in the natural course of evolution on this planet ( their existence is before our planet) much like in their own planet in their own dimension.
Some served God ( the source and sustaine of the universe)while others decide to be like God for this younger race because that is what they felt they were to Us.
So they came over to our world and assimlated themselves into our cultures, sometimes as good gods and other times as bad gods and they procreated with humans bring forth "demi-gods".
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Apognophos
It's been nice to hear some of you guys' childhood experiences. I thought I was alone in being a frightened child, but now I wonder how many of JW youths were in the same boat! Now once more unto the breach. I won't continue my devil's advocacy past this point, as I sense that I have annoyed you, sd-7, and that was not my intention; perhaps you're not a big fan of Bro. Olson. I was only attempting to have a level-headed dialectical exchange, since none of your points would be convincing to a long-time Witness, and I wanted to help.
I don't think it would be better for us if we merely stopped questioning the existence of God or something. I mean, history has a long stretch where mankind was ignorant of things--many things that were, wow, supposedly God's creations--that had they known them, a lot of lives could have been saved and the quality of life could have improved for everyone. Instead, people were getting burned at the stake because faith was more important than asking hard questions.
That's actually a false dichotomy, "science or God". It's difficult to find instances of science being hindered by a belief in God, much less scientists being burned at the stake. Regardless of whether he believes in the supernatural, man has always been driven by curiosity to learn more about his environment. Nearly all the scientists who are credited with getting the whole "science" thing started in the Age of Reason believed in God, including Newton. At no time did they think, "Well, since God made it, why do I need to understand it?" Nor does a decline in belief in God demonstrably lead to a more rational world. The average person is no more satisfied with the explanation that his tweets are conveyed through a distributed network of computers, optic fiber, copper wiring, radio transmissions and LCD crystals than if he believed the messages were carried on little slips of paper through the sky by bluebirds -- or by angels.
You might be thinking of the supposed religious persecution of scientists like Galileo, who blasphemously proposed that the Earth goes around the Sun, but that is largely a sort of urban myth. I encourage you to read Wikipedia's article on the conflict thesis. Galileo did get in trouble over heliocentrism, but it was largely a politically-motivated trial. The details are here.
We know the universe is much larger than Earth and heaven. There's as much reason to think he could go and screw up some other part of the divine plan a million parsecs from here. There's a huge vacuum of information to go on, so it leads to the assumption that somehow man is so important to the being that created an entire universe that his archenemy just has to be here to interfere.
Yes, the universe is large, but how many planets have life? We know of none besides this one. Even if Jehovah created many worlds with life, this is the one on which Satan staked his claim against God's sovereignty. If there are other planets whose Adams and Eves chose to serve God, they would naturally be protected from satanic interference.
They have me right where they want me? And you would know this, how, exactly? Based on assumptions of your own about them that you wouldn't even have had you never read the Bible.
They're not assumptions of mine at all; I'm merely telling you what has been written in the literature . Surely this isn't new information to you? The Society has been using this line of reasoning for years.
If they did show themselves to me, I'd still know that the JWs don't have the truth, and I'd be on my own, same as I truthfully was at the beginning and just didn't know it.
(I have to break character here to say that this is a much better line of reasoning. It's much easier to argue against doctrine than against spirit activity.)
you incorrectly stated that God does not protect his servants individually
You mean to say that JWs incorrectly stated this, as I was merely repeating their viewpoint for the sake of argument, since it is not my viewpoint.
Actually, I was trying to correct you on the "Witness viewpoint". Witnesses often refer to the likelihood that we do benefit from individual, physical angelic protection. It's not uncommon to hear a half-joke that elderly Brother Careener must have an angel assigned to his car full-time to explain why he hasn't been in a wreck yet. But think about the Watchtower's accounts of angels blinding persecutors so they could not see the contraband WT literature they were searching for. See here and here for some recent general application from the Society.
I'm not even going to get into the Adam and Eve stuff. There's not even any indication they had any idea of the issues going on there, all they did was eat some fruit, man.
Did not God tell them that they were not to eat from the tree or they would die? What more did they need to know? Yet when Satan told them they would not die, but would in fact become godlike, they ate the fruit. The "issues" were clearly communicated here: God said, "Accept my authority by not doing this", and Adam and Eve said, "We choose to be our own authority."
Neither of them wants to disrupt the test, so neither says anything--it's got to be a test! So their existence is proven by their absence of communication. And their absence of communication somehow provides some proof as to what they're thinking.
The best argument I can give you is that they do communicate indirectly with us all the time, as long as we let the Bible inform our understanding of the world. (But this is a better line of reasoning to at least introduce some doubt into the equation.)
As I said above, my goal was to try to hone your argument so it stands up to a JW who knows their stuff (these seem to be getting rarer these days...). If you are simply venting in a safe place, for catharsis' sake, I apologize. But you did suggest that you might have overlooked something and asked for responses.... I'll let it rest here, even if you give a response, unless you want me to continue.
P.S.: I wonder how long before the Society prevents links originating from JWN from working in their Library!