Is The Book of Revelation All About Me & My Generation?

by ClubSandwich 56 Replies latest jw friends

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  mP

  Vanderhoven7

  How do you explain the oldest copies of Rev actually have 616 and not 666. Whats even more interesting is 616 spells Nero. I would suggest you read some books written by schoalrs where they demonstrate beyond doubt that Rev is wishful hatred by a jew against Nero. The jew writes and huffs and puffs but of course Rome remains.

  There is no prophecy in Revelation. IN fact Revelation was lucky to make it into the Bible, you can do the research and veriyf this yourself. Martin Luther thought it was junk. Read about Eusebius he was a very important character in the formation of the church and bible.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

  Eusebius (c. 263–339) was inclined to class the Apocalypse with the accepted books but also listed it in the Antilegomena , with his own reservation for identification of John of Patmos with John the Apostle, pointing out there were large differences in Greek skill and styles between the Gospel of John , which he attributed to John the Apostle, and the Revelation. [10] Jerome (347–420) relegated it to second class. [11] Most canons included it, but some in the Eastern Church rejected it.

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  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Number_of_The_Best_666_Explained

  666

  The Number of the Beast is described in the passage of Revelation 13:15–18 and the actual number is only mentioned once, in verse 18 [11]

  ...

  616

  Fragment from Papyrus 115 (P115) ofRevelation in the 66th vol. of theOxyrhynchus series (P. Oxy. 4499). [14] Has the number of the Beast as 616.

  Other Revelation manuscripts such as Papyrus 115 and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C; Paris, one of the four great uncial codices) reads the number of the beast in (13:18) as 616.

  Neron Caesar

  Bust of Nero at Musei Capitolini,Rome

  It is widely accepted by many scholars that Roman Emperor Nero (ruling 54-68) is the first Beast of Revelation 13. This interpretation was received by enumerating his name and title Neron Caesar [27] to the Number of the Beast. [4] [28] [29] An Aramaic scroll from Murabba'at, dated to "the second year of Emperor Nero", refers to him by his name and title [30] where in Hebrew it is Nron Qsr (Pronounced "Neron Kaisar"), and in Latin it is Nro Qsr (Pronounced "Nero Kaisar"). [31]

  Nron Qsr

  The Greek version of the name and title transliterates into Hebrew as ???? ??? , and yields a numerical value of 666: [4] [30]

  Resh (?)	Samekh (?)	Qoph (?)	Nun (?)	Vav (?)	Resh (?)	Nun (?)	Sum
  200	60	100	50	6	200	50	666

  Nro Qsr

  The Latin version of the name drops the second Nun (?), so that it appears as Nro and transliterates into Hebrew as ??? ??? , yielding 616: [4]

  Resh (?)	Samekh (?)	Qoph (?)	Vav (?)	Resh (?)	Nun (?)	Sum
  200	60	100	6	200	50	616
• 

  ClubSandwich

  mP, you have done your homework/research well. Kudos to you. It is interesting that Nero's name can be spelled numerically as either 666 or 616. And many modern Biblical scholars dispute the fact that the Apostle John wrote the Gospel bearing his name. Most of them have no doubt that it was a strange, reclusive prophet named John who wrote Revelation. Nothing in common with both authors other than their first name.
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  Vanderhoven7

  MP: You wrote:

  How do you explain the oldest copies of Rev actually have 616 and not 666? Whats even more interesting is 616 spells Nero. I would suggest you read some books written by schoalrs where they demonstrate beyond doubt that Rev is wishful hatred by a jew against Nero. The jew writes and huffs and puffs but of course Rome remains.

  I'm sure you realize that copying errors do happen...but it is interesting that one can relegate either number to Nero. Understandably, many would hate Nero, whether Jew or Gentile, for the first mass persecution of Christians which he himself orchestrated.

  "Irenaeus in the second century, a century before the manuscript Parker relies on, already knew of the 616 variation and discounted it as an error:

  Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end), - I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] - Adv. haer. 5.30

  In this rather obscurely expressed passage, Irenaeus was proposing (even in the second century - a century BEFORE this oldest surviving copy!) that old, Greek copies of Revelation contained an error of copying in which the Greek letter xi with gematraic value 60 was wrongly copied into the Greek letter iota with number value 10."
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  tornapart

  Have any of you read any books by Bart D. Erhman? If you have, is he worth a read? Sorry if it's a little off topic....
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  PSacramento

  There is NO ONE that can say what the author of Revelation was trying to convey OTHER than the author.

  That is why what we have is conjecture at best and there is no reason to believe one theory more than any other.

  It is crucial to understand that NO religious doctrine ShOULD be developed from prophetic and apocolyptic writings that are highly symbolic and that the author is no longer around to clarify.
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  ClubSandwich

  Tornapart, I would highly recommend Bart Ehrman's books on Revelation and other books of the New Testament. Lots of hard-core believers want to shoot the messenger, but his message is well-researched and he is one of the most articulate writers and speakers on this subject.
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  Vanderhoven7

  PS:

  You wrote:

  "...what we have is conjecture at best and there is no reason to believe one theory more than any other."

  What possible blessing then can we recieve from reading Revelation if it is incomprehensible to the church of God?
• 

  PSacramento

  What possible blessing then can we recieve from reading Revelation if it is incomprehensible to the church of God?

  With your faith be any different if you had never read Revelation?

  What we get out of reading revelation should NOT be based on conjecture and guessing, it should be based on a reading of it via the grace of the HS.

  WHether the number is 666 or 616, whether it meant Nero to the writer or meant a jewisc numerology number showing the "opposite" of perfect ( which would be a variation of the number 7) we do not know and may never know.

  To make a concrete statment either way would be incorrect.
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  Christ Alone

  Can "Do some research" "wiki" be in the same sentence?
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  PSacramento

  Of course, wiki is a good place to start, just follow the citations AND look for counter-arguments.

  Too many people stop when they find what they are looking for, not what they need.

  True critical thinking is analysing BOTH sides of the argument with the same degree of criticisim.