go read the thread. if you have anything original, re-start the thread and i'll debunk it.
Do People Believe We Are Condemned B/c of Adam and Eve?
by Band on the Run 93 Replies latest jw friends
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unstopableravens
lol ok after the game ill look at it.
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Skbj
No I don't Adam & Eve it....sorry couldn't resist to a little cockney reference :P
Don't believe in Adam & Eve to start with, and that we are condemned because of someone's behaviour i don't believe either.
I agree with EP if a God knew the future there is no free will, but then I also believe in fate and not fate in that romantic way...gosh I'm possibly the least romantic woman on the planet...but...Let me explain: sometime I reflect on my life with all goods and bads I went through and I draw in my mind a kind of path and I see that if A,B, or C etc had not happened in that way at that very time, then I probably I wouldn't be where I am today. Kinda reminds me the Adjustment Bureau's movie, don't wanna bore people with my stories but I've had seriously spooky things happening in my life that left utterly baffled at time of occurance, than a long time later something happened or someone told me a fact that was the answer to the initial event, so after the initial shock I came to the conclusion that at least for me, my life is destined. I don't believe in ripetitive coincidences, that's what all good criminal investigators will tell you.
I would like to mention something seen previous posts touched on being worthy.
Something I was thinking about today. So I'm very active on Twitter, many tweets where the usual self motivational quotes you know the ones...And I thought: humans spend so much time learning, writing quoting phrases that are self-motivational (let's not even go into the book reading) that show you how much you're worth so that you can be a better person and on the other hand put themselves down by accepting that they are unworthy through believing in Adam & Eve's alleged sin. Or believing that they need a mediator to pray to whatever God is that they believe in because they are unworthy otherwise to be heard. I find it a contraddiction. Why try to pick yourself up for then knock yourself down? Idk, it puzzles me.
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designs
In the broader understanding within Judaism the story is the developing understanding of two forces Yetzer Ha Rah and Yetzer Tob which some see linked to the Zoroastrians and their idea that the dark force was their god's shadow, one inseperable from the other.
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Band on the Run
I mostly discuss proven scientific fact. Our faith need not be ignorant or view science as the enemy. The facts of Genesis are utterly ridiculous on their face. If humans never evolved or were created, how would I know they were worth being save. God created a complex ecosystem. Humans do not rule over other animals. Ask any human eaten by a lion or tiger. The smallest organisms' death affects human life.
Christians need not believe in fairy tales. These ancients legends show earlier generations grappling with the same questions we face. What is the purpose of life? Is there a God? What sort of God do we choose to worship? No religion rules over western cvilization. I can pick and choose. The differences between the sexes is discussed in Genesis I wish Leo were around b/c I am certain Canaaanite religions had many elements in common.
Most civilizations have creation myths. We do not call Buddhist myths the absolute truth. Why call Christian beliefs, descended from a bastardized sense of Judaism, creation truths.
Human morality is shown again and again in the Bible to be superior to that of YHWH. No, I am a modern, educated women who is part of a global economy. Atheism makes far more sense than a fundamentalist view.
What is so special about humans? We have no idea what animals think. How are we so special? I refuse to believe in fairy tales.
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kepler
BOTR,
Some people, of course, pose questions about one's faith to counter questions that an adult might raise after considering for once a story they have heard read like a fable before bed to a child. The adult says, "Stop for a minute. What is really going on?"
Good question. And it only raises more. As Christians we forget to ask ourselves what would this story have meant to Jews if Paul had not come along? Would it have meant the same to all of them (the covenant that they attested to, being whatever it was ) since they could little agree on whether life ended with death or continued on another plane?
If one puts any stock in the notion of various sources of the OT books and chapters, the editors of chapter 1 through to 2:4 of Genesis were of different view and origin than those that followed for several chapters. Chapter language and description of creation differ significantly in chpater one from what follows. Even the disposition and behavior of the God who had completed a six day labor. But once the second, third and fourth chapter editors complete their account of the Garden, the subject is never broached again in Genesis. Nor does it elsewhere in the Penteteuch or the rest of the OT. Abraham's encounter with God introduces a Covenant and a Promised Land that unifies most of the rest of the text.
I am told that the Eastern Orthodox Church has a different view on the story of the Garden than we have in the west. And I am still curious to have their viewpoint explained. I notice as well, that although the NT Gospels appear to have devils and demons (rather than talking snakes) lurking behind EVERY tree, so to speak, Paul does not take a position of "ransom" being paid. And I think that significant. It is people such as Rutherford or his theological predecessors that seem to make so much of representing Satan at the affair which Paul describes as a breech between God and Adam. Maybe this sounds like splitting hairs, but I think there is more to it than that. I should add that the Paul's epistles came first with the explanation of Christ in terms of the Garden. And then the Gospels were written in a succession that is not clearly known, save that the SECOND destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in a Roman siege was a significant milestone. Did all, some or one write afterwards?
Though is claimed to be the most Jewish in outlook of the Gospel writers, after a geneaology the story begins with the visit of Magi. Magi are Zoroastrians. They certainly believe in devils and a dualistic cosmos. Yet they are absent in the OT and at least one annotated Torah I have notes of 3:14, "... As the curse that follows indicates, this story has to do with the fate of the snakes, not with the cosmic role of a devil. There is no such concept in the Hebrew Bible.... v. 14 states explicitly that snakes crawl on their bellies is the punishment imposed on the snake and its descendants for the offense that it has committed." This is literal minded, of course. But are not alternative explanations for what this story about very literal and discriminating in evidentiary approach as well?
As circumstances would have it, I found myself only a few degrees of separation away from one of the priests that presided over the most famous exorcism in the country. Well, actually, he assisted. And only recently did he pass on after a career both as a high school instructor and as a paratrooper military chaplain. The subject of the rites was a young boy from the Midwest, not a young girl in the District of Columbia. While the presiding priest was more convinced that he was dealing with the devil since he was inflicted with a wound of about a hundred stitches in the midst of the encounter ( a hooked bedspring), the other attending priest said that "all he was sure of was that boy needed help" and that he confronted more evil on the battlefront.
I came away from both reading the Bible and these testimonies with the notion that evil is something more significantly within us and not so much about a dualistic battle over eternity between a demon and God. If I spend my life searching for this demon, I am more likely to spawn one within myself or fire weapons in the dark wounding others taking aim at it. To illustrate, try reading the raving daily entries of the 1934 Yearbook edited by Rutherford. And consider others whose means of exorcism was related more to alighting the strange at the stake. So if there is a question of spiritual triage, that reflects my thinking.
Of course, none of this resolves your dilemma, but I hope it provides some other perspectives.
K
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sabastious
I mostly discuss proven scientific fact. Our faith need not be ignorant or view science as the enemy. The facts of Genesis are utterly ridiculous on their face. If humans never evolved or were created, how would I know they were worth being save. God created a complex ecosystem. Humans do not rule over other animals. Ask any human eaten by a lion or tiger. The smallest organisms' death affects human life.
There are no facts given in Genesis, Band. It should NEVER be told as if the characters are real people. They represent CONCEPTS rather than persons. For so long all of us were subject to the heresy of a literal interpretation of Genesis. The people who wrote it never intended for it to be abused like that. For you to think that Genesis is a presentation of facts shows me that you are unwilling to consider alternatives to mainstream explanations for the text. The fact is that the text has been misinterpreted by people like the Watchtower. Not all misinterpretation is malicious like the Watchtower, but all of it is untruth.
Humanity has ALL lesser life in subjection to it. Yes, lions can defeat us in a one on one fight, but if they were superior THEY would be the dominant species on the planet, not us. We win in the long run, which a theme for humanity. Much like how the history of the nation of Israel is. There have always been microorganisms in opposition to us, but ultimately our immune systems win out, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. This is no coincidence.
Christians need not believe in fairy tales. These ancients legends show earlier generations grappling with the same questions we face. What is the purpose of life? Is there a God? What sort of God do we choose to worship? No religion rules over western cvilization. I can pick and choose. The differences between the sexes is discussed in Genesis I wish Leo were around b/c I am certain Canaaanite religions had many elements in common.
Who is suggesting that we believe in fairy tales? I am saying that the Torah is the superior document when set up against any other Scripture. Which is why it ended up founding the Christian church. Yes, you can find the values of the Torah, which IS Christianity, in many other religions, but the point of the Torah is to consolidate religion (Exodus 20:3). It simply supercedes all other religious thought because it covers every religious and spiritual base imaginable. To hold onto inferior practices because of tradition is not acceptible. The writers set out to accomplish a piece of Scripture that would END all Scripture, and that's what they did. All Scripture after the Torah is merely a reflection of it.
You say that you can pick and choose and that's what the Torah is all about: your God-given FREE WILL, and therefore any recognition of it's superiority will be FREELY given by the reader. No coercion is necessary, it simply stands on it's own two feet. If you don't acknowledge this I would say you're reading it with some limiting spectacles. Like how you think that Genesis is about facts when it's actually about truth and wisdom in regards to the origin of life and existence with a strong theme of celestial leadership and spiritual enlightement.
Most civilizations have creation myths. We do not call Buddhist myths the absolute truth. Why call Christian beliefs, descended from a bastardized sense of Judaism, creation truths.
In my experience most creation myths agree with Genesis. They are told with a different skin, but the same values are intended. This is because there is ONLY ONE GOD and therefore anything people write down in his name will follow a similar line of thought. The Spirit of God doesn't have boundries and certainly doesn't care about race, that's what we care about. A shameful trait that is slowly being weeded out of our culture.
Human morality is shown again and again in the Bible to be superior to that of YHWH. No, I am a modern, educated women who is part of a global economy. Atheism makes far more sense than a fundamentalist view.
This is in no way true. The morality contained in the Torah is true and eternal. It was written by prideful men in a culture of terror and violence. The character of YHWH is a perfect representation of God the Father and his interactions with humanity is spot on.
-Sab
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GLTirebiter
if god knows the future, there is no free will.
Consider the example of parents raising children. As they grow and learn, you allow them increasing latitude to make choices, and experienece the consequences of their choices. When they are young, you limit their choices to protect them from serious consequences. As they grow and learn, you allow then to make more choices, more serious choices. When they are teens, they will begin to make grown-up choices. Often, even we imperfect parents foresee that they are making a bad one. We encourage them to choose more wisely, we warn them of the consequences, but we cannot stop them from exercising their free will in a less-than-ideal manner. We do this because we know that if they are not free to err, they are also not free to be correct.
The theological case is the same, at a larger scale: without the freedom to sin, there is no virtue in overcoming temptation. A "god" who denies us the ability to be virtuous? That is a fair description of the devil!
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EntirelyPossible
Often, even we imperfect parents foresee that they are making a bad one.
The theological case is the same, at a larger scale
That would mean that god is guessing and some percentage of the time, would be wrong. That's is not knowing the future, that's guessing.
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GLTirebiter
That would mean that god is guessing and some percentage of the time, would be wrong. That's is not knowing the future, that's guessing.
No, that means knowning while not intervening. The outcome of the choice was foreseen, but the choice was freely made.