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The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed
by FaceTheFacts 259 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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problemaddict
Hey Ann and Jeffro,
I need some help. I think I have an opening to discuss with a loved one the 607 vs 587 thing. She believes 607 is the correct date, basically refferencing Cyrus cylinder, and the 70 years of desolation. She is interested in what the bible says, more that secular history.
I have to be honest, and say that this was never a very big deal to me. I don't even think I can explain the JW stance on it, much less understand a conversation like this thread. Is there any way you guys could point me to not only the official JW explanation, but the for and against arguments in detail so that i could get a redux?
I would have PM'd you but I couldn't figure out how.
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johnamos
Jeremiah 25: 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nationswill have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.
The first notice that verse 11 says “these nations”…meaning that it is not only Jerusalem, but there are others nations as well. Second thing is that it says will have to “serve”.
Q: When did Jehovah say he was going to call to account the king of Babylon and that nation?
[Jeremiah 25:12“‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,]
A: When 70 years had been fulfilled.
Q: What year did Jehovah call to account the king of Babylon and that nation?
[8-1-81 WT “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
A: In 539 Jehovah called to account the king of Babylon and that nation by executing his judment upon them by having them overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.
[539+70 =609]
[10-1-11 WT “According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.”]
From the British museum:
[Babylonian Chronicle (616-609 BC) In 610/9 Ashur-uballit and the Egyptians who had come to his aid withdrew west of the Euphrates and Napopolassar sacked Harran. The Assyrians and Egyptians attempted to retake the region, but their siege failed. From this point on the Assyrians and their king disappear from history.]http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/cuneiform_fall_of_nineveh.aspx
The end of the Assyrian empire was in 609, beginning the Babylonian empire, which ended in 539. The 70 years amounted to the time frame that Babylon was given by Jehovah to reign as a world power.
[Daniel 5:26, 30 “This is the interpretation of the word: ME´NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it. In that very night Bel·shaz´zar the Chal·de´an king was killed.]
[DP ch7 p.108 “The Great Timekeeper, Jehovah, had numbered the days of Babylon’s reign as a world power, and the end was closer than anyone at Belshazzar’s banquet thought. In fact, time had run out—not only for Belshazzar but also for his father, Nabonidus.”]
[9-15-98 WT “The Medes and the Persians easily took the city, and Belshazzar did not live through the night. With his death, and the apparent surrender of Nabonidus to Cyrus, the Neo-Babylonian Empire came to an end.”]
Now consider:
[2-1-72 WT “In 539 B.C.E. Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and Persians and in 537 B.C.E., after seventy years’ exile, the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem to rebuild its temple.”]
Now compare the above statement with what the following:
Jeremiah 25:11And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.12 And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilledI shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation
Keeping in mind that it was when the 70 years had been fulfilled that Jehovah was going to call to account that king/nation, how is it that he turned his attention and called to account the king of Babylon two years after he had that king and nation destroyed? And if 70 years were meant to mean a full 70 years that Jerusalem had to be in exile to Babylon, rather then the 70 years meaning the length of time that Babylon would be a ruling empire, then what did the 70 years mean to the rest of the nations?Were they in exile the full 70 like Jerusalem? And again, the scripture says the nations will have to “serve” …so; did the rest of the nations begin their servitude in 607 and end in 537?
Below, in verse 9,11 and 13 read “nations” plural. What nations are being referred to?What did the 70 years mean for these nations?
Jeremiah 25:9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. 10 And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite. 13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations.
(Jer 25:11 The whole landscape will be one vast wasteland. These countries will be insubjectionto the king of Babylon for seventy years. – MSG)
Servitude -the state or condition of being subjected to or dominated by a person or thing
This prophecy of 70 years is describing years of servitude under Babylon. This would include Jerusalem/Judah as well as all the other nations, but not that any one nation would serve the full 70 years, but rather all at some point would be under subjection during the 70 years. The time would end for all at the same time, being when Babylon was destroyed, but each nation’s time under subjection would vary based on when Babylon dominated them. It is not relevant how long each was under subjection to, because the 70 years is how long Babylon was allowed to be a ruling power, not how long any one nation had to serve.
With the above said in regards to the 70 years…it seems that the WTS agrees with this very same reasoning.
IP1 p.25321 Isaiah goes on to prophesy: “ItmustoccurinthatdaythatTyremustbeforgottenseventyyears,thesameasthedaysofoneking.” (Isaiah23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will “be forgotten.” True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.
The above excerpt does not just agree and confirm all but it actually nullifies everything that the WTS say in regards to the 70 years pertaining to exile just for the Jews, beginning in 607, and ending in 537.
Quote- “Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination” End quote
Taking what is said thus far and throwing it out and now only reasoning on the IP1 excerpt…
The WTS stated that the 70 years represents the period of time of Babylon’s greatest domination . (This period being, due to Babylon haven defeated Assyria that was then the (2 nd ) ruling world power and now Babylon became the new (3 rd ) ruling world power.)
This 70-year period of time is said to have ended in 539, which would have to mean that it begun in 609. (This confirms the secular chronology that the 10-1-11 WT mentions.)
They state that different nations came under Babylon’s domination at different times during these 70 years. (This would also have to include Jerusalem. Keep in mind; they make it clear that the 70 years END in 539. So again, that would mean that the 70 years had to start in 609.)
With them saying; “True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire” they are referring to the length of time that Babylon was a world power (70 years) as being considered as “one king” even thou there were actually 7 kings during this time period. This means that although Babylon was a nation with a king (Nabopolassar) during the time that Assyria was the (2 nd ) world power, it wasn’t until Assyria was defeated by Babylon in 609 that Babylon began it’s 70-year reign as the (3 rd ) world power . A time period Jehovah himself gave. ( DP ch7 p.108, Daniel 5:26, 9-15-98 WT,IP1 p.253,10-1-11 WT )
Instightp.425 Particularly was this domination manifest during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. when Nabopolassar, a native of Chaldea, and his successors, Nebuchadnezzar II, Evil-merodach (Awil-Marduk), Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and Belshazzar, ruled the Third World Power, Babylon. (2Ki 24:1, 2; 2Ch 36:17; Ezr 5:12; Jer 21:4, 9; 25:12; 32:4; 43:3; 50:1; Eze 1:3; Hab 1:6) That dynasty came to its end when “Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed.
Nabopolassar (21 years)
Nebuchadnezzar (43 years)
Evil-merodach (2 years)
Neriglissar (4 years)
Labashi-Marduk (9 months)
Nabonidus (4 years or 17 years combined with Belshazzar)Belshazzar (13 years or 17 years combined with Nabonidus, either way the same 17 years as Nabonidus)
In regards to those 7 kings: Starting from Nebuchadnezzar 43+2+4+9m+17=66y 9m
[DP p.50 par.2 Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned for 43 years, headed a dynasty that ruled over the Babylonian Empire.
1-1-65 WT p.29 par.3 Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar
1-1-65 WT p.29 par.3 Neriglissar, who reigned for four years
1-1-65 WT p.29 par.3 His (Neriglissar) underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months.
Instightp.457 par.1 NABONIDUS - Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years(556-539 B.C.E.).]
2-1-55 WT p.95 par.14 It is well to understand that all Bible chronology dates for events prior to 539 B.C. must be figured backward from the Absolute date of 539 B.C.
539+66.9=605.9
Instightp.480 During the 21st year of Nabopolassar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar marched with the Babylonian army to Carchemish, there to fight against the Egyptians.
From the British museum:
[Babylonian Chronicle (605-594 BC) Following the defeat of the Assyrians (as described in the Chronicle for 616-609 BC), the Egyptians became the greatest threat to the Babylonians. In 605 Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian crown prince, replaced his father Nabopolassar as commander-in-chief and led the army up the Euphrates to the city of Charchemish. There he defeated the Egyptians. Later that year Nabopolassar died and Nebuchadnezzar returned to Babylon to be crowned.]
KC p186 par.3 The Bible reports that the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th regnal year (19th when accession year is included)
605.9-18=587
The above list of kings and years that they reigned was compiled by using the references from the WTS as well as the use of the cuneiform tablets.
In regards to cuneiform tablets the WTS had this to say:
KC p.186 par.7 Business tablets: Thousands of contemporary Neo-Babylonian cuneiform tablets have been found that record simple business transactions, stating the year of the Babylonian king when the transaction occurred. Tablets of this sort have been found for all the years of reign for the known Neo-Babylonian kings in the accepted chronology of the period.
In addition to the said list of kings and their years of reign mentioned above by the WTS…the 10-1-11 WT starting on page 26, there in a box it shows Berossus’ and Ptolemy’s list of years for the kings. Both Berossus and Ptolemy lists agree with one another, although Ptolemy does omit the reign of Labashi-Marduk, because he only recorded whole years.
BEROSSUS PTOLEMY
c. 350-270 B.C.E. 100 C.E. c. 100-170 C.E.
Nebuchadnezzar II 43 43
Amel-Marduk 2 2
Neriglissar 4 4
Labashi-Marduk 9 months —
Nabonidus 17 17 556-539 B.C.E
Berossus’ and Ptolemy’s lists of kings and their years match the same as found in the WTS’s references. Also in support of Ptolemy’s said list of kings and years…the WTS said this:
KC p.186 par.5 Nabonidus Harran Stele (NABON H 1, B): This contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar,Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy’s Canon.
[Actually, it also mentions Nabopolassar’s reignas well.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/Adda_Guppi_Harran.htm
NABONIDUS HI, BCol. I
31 .his son, the 2 I St year of Nabopolassar, the 43rd year of Nebuchadrezzar,
32. the 2nd year of Awel-Marduk, the 4th year of Neriglissar,]The following Awake shows how a cuneiform tablet found is use to confirm the historical existence of a Biblical figure. While it indeed does so, the professor that did the translation also confirms 587.
May 2009 Awake “A Receipt That Corroborates the Bible Record” A two-inch-wide [5.5 cm] clay tablet was unearthed in the 1870’s near modern-day Baghdad, Iraq. In 2007, Michael Jursa, a professor at the University of Vienna, in Austria, came across the tablet while doing research at the British Museum. Jursa recognized the name Nebo-sarsechim (Nabu-sharrussu-ukin, in its Babylonian form), a Babylonian official mentioned in the Bible at Jeremiah 39:3.
The following is part of the actually article from the British Museum that the WTS are speaking of:
Tablet recording a gold delivery by the chief eunuch of Nebuchadnezzar II The Babylonian cuneiform inscription on this clay tablet sheds new light on Chapter 39 of the Biblical Book of Jeremiah. It gives the name and title of a high-ranking Babylonian officer who, according to Jeremiah, was present at the historic siege of Jerusalem in 587 BC with King Nebuchadnezzar II. It therefore confirms the historical existence of this Biblical figure.
The tablet was translated in 2007 by Dr Michael Jursa, working in the Department of the Middle East study room. The text relates that the Babylonian officer had sent a quantity of gold, presumably as a gift, to Esangila, the temple of the chief god of Babylonia, Marduk…
Click link for full article.
So in closing…
What do you say the 70 years meant to all of the nations?
What year did the 70 begin and when did they end?
Based on Jeremiah 25:12 where Jehovah says that when 70 years had been fulfilled he was going to call to account Babylon, in what year did that occur?
Now if you add 70 to the year you answered that Jehovah called to account Babylon…what year do you have?
What did the 70 years mean for Tyre and when did they end for them?
If Jehovah said he was going to do something at a specific time, i.e. call to account Babylon when 70 years had been fulfilled, would he do it 2 years before they were actually fulfilled?
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BroMac
johnamos- what a first post. WELCOME. is that your own work? I enjoyed reading through it. nice breakdown lengthy but simple to follow.
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PSacramento
She is interested in what the bible says, more that secular history.
This is one of the biggest problem right there, why?
Simply because the bible does NOT mantion any dates at all, for an concrete dates you MUST use secualr history.
So... what we must do is find the correct date usinG MULTIPLE lines of secular historical evidence and then reconcile the bible TO THOSE DATES.
The historical accuracy of the bible is based on multiple lines of secualr history and that is what we have for the fall of Jeruslaem happening on 587/6 BC.
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BroMac
True dat. I said to my wife on this very subject that the bible does not say what date Jerusalem was destroyed. "YES it does"
ok would you be so kind as to show me? because I have never seen a BCE dated event in the Bible.
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Londo111
Welcome, johnamos! Very good research!
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Jeffro
problemaddict:
I need some help. I think I have an opening to discuss with a loved one the 607 vs 587 thing. She believes 607 is the correct date, basically refferencing Cyrus cylinder, and the 70 years of desolation. She is interested in what the bible says, more that secular history.
You might like to start at http://jeffro77.wordpress.com/607-for-dummies/ for what the Bible actually says.
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problemaddict
607 for dummies. That was a bit of a gut punch.
Thanks guys will do. Of course the bible has no dates, so we only can use absolute dates related to biblical events. Its my guess that these absolute dates tend to be the ones everyone has an issue with.
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Jeffro
problemaddict:
607 for dummies. That was a bit of a gut punch.
It's just a pun based on the for Dummies books. It's only intended satirically.