athiest this is for you! (page 18)

unstopableravens

ohh maybe i was wrong about atheist not running away like jw

cofty

The word sin implies a higher power to whom we are accountable.

Until you provide evidence of that I am justified in claiming to be sinless.

Belief in god can be a hindrance to ethical behaviour.

cantleave

Unstop if a person said a house results from an explosion they would have a low iq but you say that about the earth .

You really need to read a basic science book!!!

I have provided some great links and offered some pretty good references for you but alas, that statement shows me you have not read or watched any of them.

I really suggest you go to a library and get out a book called "The Magic of Reality" by Richard Dawkins. Although aimed a children, it provides an excellent foundation in science and at least you won't drop clangers like that statement again

unstopableravens

cant leave can you post another link?

still thinking

"The Magic of Reality" by Richard Dawkins

I have just finished reading that book and it was excellent. I recommend it too.

unstopableravens

i think the video cant leave put up was excellent

Ticker

Lee Strobel who was a former atheist wrote a good book on this topic. In fact I believe there is a whole chapter devoted to why God allowded children to die. Google "The Case For Faith", it is straight forward unbiased and takes all views into perspective. There is a video with the same title that highlights this as well that is worth the watch. He began an in depth search on the biblical claims of Jesus after his wifes conversion. As a result of the evidence he discovered he became a Christian himself.

Faith is not an easy thing to build and can be even harder to keep when we don't quite understand why things are so in the world. The example of Charles Tempelton that is mentioned in the video is a good example of this. I'll disclose that I too struggled with my faith soon after I left the Watchtower organization. I can relate to the feeling. For years I was in turmoil as what to believe and if God even existed. Still I kept an open mind, did my own research on many of these points that people stumble over, and was able to conclude that indeed there is a creator. Science did not contrast with creation but the two actually harmonize very nicely. Other aspects of why things were so in the bible started to make sense. I asked many of these hard questions and they were hard! I did find comfort in knowing that God does exist.

I would encourage keeping an open mind. Science is not always so cut and dry or black and white. We as humans can only comprehend a 4 dimensional world. Science has found 6 other dimensions beyond this that are spiritual. There are 10 dimensions and probably 11 in total. This might seem unimaginable but I assure you physics has show these dimensions to be very probable.

xchange

Lee Strobel... . you're kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding.

xchange

For your perusal...better yet, read the whole thing.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=The_Case_for_Christ

Ticker

xchange thank you for the link. I did honor the information and gave it a good read. Heres my take on what was presented there.

To start with it's a rebuttal against Lee's research in his case for Christ. I will admit that I have not looked at that Case file of Lee's so I will have to assume that the author of the wikipedia rebuttal is being honest in the facts given, which I'm sure they are or they are very sincere in their conjecture of the evidence.

Good points were raised to give them due credit. What I did note though is they jump to the conclusion in Chapter 3 that Dr. Bruce Metzger used religous bias in not accepting the Gospel of Thomas. I find that statement not only dishonest but misleading. No where in the prior paragraph did Metzger claim he did not accept the Gospel of Thomas but merely stated that "Church councils squelched legitimate documents because they didn't like the picture of Jesus they portrayed." Obviously the bible was cannonized long before Metzger existed and he did not state he rejected these legitimate texts but rather was honest in saying the early councils had possibly due to not favoring these writings.

They also make the assumption that the bibles honesty in reporting is just to ensure they are using good propaganda metrics. As per quote "Just like modern day propagandists, the Gospel writers knew what they had to do." Where is the evidence to support this? They later claim that no one can possibly prophile someone 2000 years ago but yet in this very statement they claim to accurately prophile the writers of the Gospel's as propagandists. Does this not seem like double speak?

They also attack biblical archeology as errant, academically unaccepted, and void of any real proof. This statement obviously overlooks the large amount of supporting evidence uncovered in the "fertile cresent" that supports biblical accounts. To name just a few we have

"Behistun Inscription" which then led to the deciphering of over 22,000 other tablets containing parallel accounts of creation, the flood, and tower of Babel. The bibles mention of Hittites were another point of mockery critics used until toward the end of the 19th century Hittite monuments were uncovered at Carcemish proving the Bible correct. Now they no longer question this.
In 1974 17,000 cuniform tablets and fragments were discovered in Northern Syria with similar tables found in Egypt and Mesopotamia. They were dated prior to the 24th century Nochian flood showing writing was common centuries before Moses silencing the claims that Moses and his contemporaries were illiterate and that Ezra was the author of the Pentateuch in the 5th century.
The biblical account of the Jewish Captivity was branded a fairy tale of Jewish folklore. Then in 1935-38 21 "Lachish Ostraca" inscribed pottery fragments wrote in ancient Hebrew script proved the account to be accurate. Also many more Babylonian historical texts have been discovered since 1930 that also show Nebuchadnezzer's conquest. Historical authenticity of Babylonian captivity is widely accpeted and firmly established.
Cylinder of Nabonidus which proved the Bibles accuracy of Belshazzar's existence as a historical figure.
Pool of Siloam where Jesus healed the blind man - John 9:1-7 Scholors had claimed this pool did not exist however it was discovered in 2005 thus again attesting to archeology supporting biblical history. I could carry one with many more examples but I feel the point of this is made. To consider bible archeology as just bunk is like having tunnel vision with all the facts around you. Or it's a biased personal opinion of the articles author.

Now the article swings it's focus on the validity of Jesus even being a historical figure and attempt to dismiss him as a mythical being. This is known as the Christ-myth theory. A good counter argument put forth is we all agree on the validity of Alexander the Great even though there are no personal accounts, not one, only five ancient sources written 300 plus years after his existence. However no question is made to Alexander being who he was due to archeology and impact on history.

Now we have Jesus in which there is archeological evidence for his being, early Christian and non-Christian accounts, early New Testament Manuscripts from 125CE and possibly even 70CE, as well as historical impact.

Historical impact is no question so we can easily conclude this point.
Archeology - 1961 discovery of limestone inscribed with "Ponteus Pilate Prefect of Judea" and in 1990 the discovery of an ossuary with the inscription of "Caiaphas". This lends support to the trial of Jesus. December 21, 2009 discovery of first century clay shards in Nazareth confirming it's existence during the time of Christ. Now look at what the author in the rebuttel states in Chapter 5 "no references to Nazareth can be found in any written source outside the Gospels before the 4th century." Either this author is oblivious to this discovery, they have failed to update this article, or they are being outright decietful to the facts. The last two prove dishonest and the first proves ignorance.
Non-Christian accounts - Josephus - While the author is correct that some of Josephus' words are in dispute he makes an erronous assumption in broadly claiming them all to be forgeries. Josephus' confirmation of Jesus' existence to the contrary of the article is widely accepted by scholors.(Macdowell and Wilson, 42-43). We also have Israeli Scholor Schlomo Pines states that even the most bitter opponents of Christianity never deny the existence of Christ. Will Durant also emphasized that no Jew or Gentile from the 1st century denied Christ' existence. Then there is the early Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius that acknowledge Jesus as a real person. Also Roman officials along with 2 Caesars who wrote letters mentioning Jesus and the early Christian orgins. Emporors Trajan(ad 56-117) and Hadrian(ad 76-136) Multiple Pagan sources of Jesus existence including Thallus in ad 52 a mere 20 years after Christ. Altogether a total of 42 Christian and Non-Christian sources compared with a mere 10 for Tiberius.

I'm not saying this author doesn't have some valid points of discussion but his claims of biased journalism might be directed also at his own conjectures. Seems many of Lee Strobel's do indeed hold up to proper scrutiny. I agree that maybe Lee should have had interviewed some atheists to get their view instead of playing the Devil's advocate but we must remember he too was an atheist so he could understand their view in attempting to represent a fair argument. I think Lee did the best he could from that standpoint as it was this project that changed his view on atheism.

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