athiest this is for you! (page 12)

cofty

We feel different levels of sin merits different punishment.

Yes of course every sane person knows this is true.

Does a person who shows impatience to another deserve the same punishment as a serial child rapist?

According to Calvin he does.

This demonstrates the corrosive effects of christian doctrine on the thinking ability of an otherwise sensible adult.

Deputy Dog

cofty

Does a person who shows impatience to another deserve the same punishment as a serial child rapist?
This demonstrates the corrosive effects of christian doctrine on the thinking ability of an otherwise sensible adult.

I don't remember where Calvin said that in so many words. They all deserve hell, that's not to say it's the same punishment.

cofty

So Deputy are you saying there is a nicer hell for misdemeanors? Is just a little bit too warm for comfort?

Deputy Dog

I wouldn't put it that way. I just don't think it will be the same. I think even Calvin probably would insist on justice in hell

cantleave

Ticker:

As you spent the time writing a response (but not answering my challenge) I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Saul's request for foreskins had nothing to do with God. God did not request the foreskins but Saul did.

Agreed. But this was an aside in the book, The point of this chapter was to show that the god of the bible shows duplicity with regard to the concept of “righteousness”, seeing some pretty psychotic and really terrible people as righteous in his eyes.

Saul was not in the best moral standing himself and such a depraved request would probably not be surprising.

But why would a righteous man like David, agree to go along with it? If I went along with a despotic, criminal regime I would be guilty of crimes, even if I thought what I was doing is wrong.

God doesn't control every action someone does but he lets us use free will to decide how we will act. If he didn't then it would go against God's whole being.

Free will? Do you mean “You can do what I say or go to Hell”? (Remember this challenge was set Unstop who believes in hell). David used his free will to undertake this repellent act, making him responsible for an atrocity. The thing is the god of the bible still considered him righteous despite this.

It's similar with Abraham taking Hagar for a wife upon Sarah's request due to their lack of faith that God would produce a seed through Sarah.

I’m sorry it’s NOTHING like. Harvesting foreskins from slaughtered soldiers and having a bit on the side are not the same by any sane person’s measure.

They tried to implement God's plan with their own hands and bad resulted from it. God allowed it but didn't put his stamp of approval on it. He formed the original union to be man and wife not wives. This was always the intent but humanity in a sinful state fell short of these ideals.

Sorry I really do not see the relevance of this in this particular discussion.

With the death of David and Bathsheba's son it was a consequence of the action but not the punishment.

Sorry, are you saying this death was not a punishment? It would have happened anyway? That is contradictory to 2 Samuel 12:14 “However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.”

So this poor child was never given the opportunity to live a life as punishment for its parents sins. Where’s the justice in that?

Many other unsavory results fell upon David due to his incorrect choice. The problem was the violation of God's law, the hypocrisy was observed by other nations, and God was dishonored.

Wow, once again this god has such a fragile ego and demands honour or is concerned what the surrounding nations think about him. The truth is this god doesn’t care what other nations think, otherwise he would not have sanctioned mass rape, and infanticide and genocide in his name.

David's triumphs and equally or perhaps great his sins were widely noted by gentile nations. Had nothing resulted from the matter the other nations might have reasoned that if God doesn't deal with the sin of his saints neither will he care of ours. This would result in a mockery of God as they would have confidence in getting away with their sins. Now the penalty of the sin was not the death of David's child but rather a consequence. David's penalty was rightly death!

Allowing David to live, when the law was an eye for an eye, would have been observed by other nations as duplicitous, one rule for the common man and another for the king!

David realized his sin upon God's disclosure through Nathan's discourse and repented. He continues in lamentation of repentance during his childs illness. He had faith in God's soveriegnty and this faith was put into action by his repentance.

At least he had this option. What about the poor guys who were killed instantly for saving the Ark of the Covenant? Why weren’t they shown the same level of mercy by this tyrant god?

Unfortunetly the child born in sin does pass away but notice the comfort found in 2 Samuel 12:23 - "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him but he shall not return to me."

Some comfort!!! The fact remains the child died as punishment for its parents sins in directly violation to the bible god’s own law in Deuteronomy 24:16.

After this passage David gets up, washes, annoints himself, changes his clothes, and goes to praise God. We might find this strange but I think David found solace in the death of his son because of the assurance that he while the child may not return to be with him in life he would be with the child in heaven.

Again whoopee doo! That’s as sick as those saying the children massacred in CT are now in a better place.

We also get an insight into God's view of Children in the Old Testament at Jonah 4:5-11. It is made clear to Jonah that he does not desire to bring wrath upon 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand. Nor is the desire even for animals to perish. Those who can't reason such as animals or children who don't know the difference between right and left hand are differentiated from those who can make a logical free will choice. The desire of God is not to destroy the Ninevite children and he rebukes Jonah for being angry at his Grace upon them.

Shame he didn’t have this grace with the children of the nations whom the Isrealites stole land from in order to gain their promised land.

Also according to the Old and New Testaments children are not to suffer divine condemnation for their parents. Deuteronomy 24:16 - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for their own sin."

Now you come to this!!!

Jeremiah 31:30 - "everyone will die for his own iniquity" The bible is clear that we all have sin by nature even upon our birth as sin entered through Adam and Eve.

.None of this Justifies the fact that David and Bathsheba’s first born was killed as PUNISHMENT in contradiction to the two scriptures you just quoted.

This foundation is layed in Romans Chapters 1-3. However their is distinction in being a sinner by nature and sinner by deed. Romans 7 speaks of being alive apart from the law and then being alive to the law. Specifically Romans 7:9 - "I was once alive apart from the law. but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died." The seems to indicate an age of accountability and would coincide with God's view of the Ninevite children. At what age one is accountable is unknown nor may it be the same for everyone.

A new born can NEVER be held accountable unless you are sick minded, twisted, fucked up despot!

I think the real key to this whole point is whether we die as an infant or as an adult we all require the Salvation from sin through Jesus the Christ. Also we know God loves children and doesn't judge them for anothers sins.

I think you have shown otherwise, as does the god who directed slaughter of children throughout the Old Testament.

Even Jesus loved the little children. While this seems a horrific event for David's child we find encouragement that God has bestowed his grace upon all even that little child. God's gave up his own Son for us as a portrayal of his love for us. - John 3:16 Jesus died in a very horific manner but it demonstrates the perfection of God's holiness. We can not understand the perfection of God in our state and find it hard to comprehend but more importantly we have been given the undeserved gift of Grace through Jesus.

So God created men and women with original sin. Then he impregnated a virgin woman with himself as her child, so that he could be born. Once alive, he killed himself as a sacrifice to himself - to save you from the sin he originally condemned you to. Makes so much sense to me!

This just shows that long posts don't necessarily answer the questions asked. We still have a god that is more than happy to deem psychopathic murderers, rapists, perverts and scum as "righteous in his eyes". No wonder the churches are full are paedophiles and religion is reponsible for so much bloodshed.

Deputy Dog

This just shows that long posts don't necessarily answer the questions asked. We still have a god that is more than happy to deem psychopathic murderers, rapists, perverts and scum as "righteous in his eyes". No wonder the churches are full are paedophiles and religion is reponsible for so much bloodshed.

Wow! Good thing you don't have any sin.

athiest this is for you!

unstopableravens

cofty

Deputy Dog

cofty

Deputy Dog

cantleave

Deputy Dog

cofty

Deputy Dog

cofty

Share this