Unless the question is wrong in some way, Punk.
Sort of like that question... 'Did you stop beating your wife?'
Peace,
tammy
If Jehovah Can Read Hearts Then WHY
by BlindersOff1 301 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
AGuest
Ive read the entire text that you wrote but i am totally confused.
No worries, dear mp (good morning, and peace to you!). Let's see if we can help you get some clarity.
Why you call God by his Jewish name Jehovah ?
I don't. I never use that name. There is no "Jehovah." Why do you think I call Him by such?
Its totally dishonest to refer make statemnts using this name, when everybody is thinking you are talking about the OT god who did and said lots of things there.
I think you misunderstand. The name of the MOST Holy One of Israel is not "Jehovah" (nor do I use such a name) - it is "JAH" (Psalms 68:4). Add to that His description ("Who Breathes Armies Into Existence/Life") and He is "JaHVeH".
You then turn about and say its all twisted, etc.
Ummmmm... I truly don't know what you're referring to. Truly. If you want to post an example, I would be happy to clarify.
You are presenting a new identity using a name associted with something completely different.
No, actually, I'm not. It's not a new identity at all. "Jehovah" and "Jesus" are the new identities man has given to the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). That they have allowed these new identities to exist is simply for the sake of not allowing man to profane the TRUE names. There is a MOUNTAIN of reprooach heaped on the names "Jehovah" and "Jesus." MOUNTAIN. But the TRUE name of the MOST Holy One of Israel... "JaHVeH"... is sanctified... clean... holy. Still. Now, sure, there are those who are TRYING to reproach it... even here... by reproaching the One who came in that name (JAH eShua). But they're not able to. They can't even write it, let alone speak it. One has learned to cut and paste it, true... but that's not the same thing: didn't come "out" of that one.
Its down right misrepresentation and lible.
Libel? Ummmm... do you know the meaning of the word "libel"? Do you know what it is? How it's proved? To whom it's applied and whom it is not? I think you should look legal words like that up before you accuse someone of them... in writing. Because that could get YOU sued. Even if it's only stated on a social internet forum. Because... that could be construed as... wait for it... libel.
If you have new ideas about "Jehovah" you should qualify your thoughts so everyone is clear this is not the God of the OT. AT the very least you should give him a new name.
No new ideas... and, again, no new name. But I have to say that I find it quite curious that people who used the name "Jehovah" all of their lives... while people who did not had a problem with them doing so... now deign to take issue with someone using a name THEY aren't familiar with. Do you see the hypocrisy in that kind of thinking? No? Hmmmm....
How do you know all these new things
(1) They are not new; they are actually things that were true long, long, before the false pen of the scribes began to change them. (2) I don't know anything in and of myself; what I DO know I receive from the Word of God... the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).
I am amazed that you take exception to a petty label being thrown, but somehow the alimighty setting an example of human sacrifice is well fine.
Er, what?? I didn't exception to the label - I took exception to someone saying I had called them such. I did not. It was a false accusation that needed correcting else someone (like you, perhaps) think I did. That's it, that's all.
How many other dmb fools copied Abrahams idea because well its in holy writings ?
I couldn't even begin to tell you. If they followed through, though, they weren't copying Abraham...
THrowing a label at yourself doesnt hurt you one little bit. You can awlk away without any scaring and whats even better than the poor sods who were victims of human sacrifice, you are alive.
Again, not sure what you're on about here...
Imagine if God made a statement here and said HUman sacrifice is wrong at the very least Jepthahs daughter would have lived.
It WRONG... as well as VERY stupid and unloving of Jepthah! Okay, so he wanted what he wanted - SURELY, he could have vowed a cow or something! Heck, his OWN life! But no, like Adham, we vowed his DAUGHTER! Who DOES that?? YOU'RE confused, though, because YOU'VE been taught... and so buy into... the WTBTS wicked use of that story to convince its members to dedicate their children to THEM... and for such children to go... willingly... even if it means their death!!
"Surely, dear brothers, as Jephthah dedicated his daughter to be sacrificed, literally, to Gawd, you should, too! And you children, should you not go willingly to your death if your parents so dedicate you?!"
The account of Jephthah was NOT the same as the account of Abraham - in the first, the MOST Holy One of Israel ASKED Abraham to give his son. He knew He was never going to let Abraham go through with it. And so He stayed Abraham's hand. NO ONE ASKED Jepthah to sacrifice, dedicate, give, or NUTHIN' as to his daughter. In the account, JAH had already been handing Israel's enemies over to Jephthah (people who had attacked Israel first). But Jepthah wanted the Ammonites... and BAD. NOT be the Ammonites were bad (they were)... but because he wanted to impress and rule over his half brothers who had rejected him as a young man! He wanted them to come under him and be subject to him... SO bad... that he made a rash and horrible vow!
Did you read anywhere, though, where he went BACK to JAH and asked for mercy for his daughter? At ALL? Nope. And he didn't tell his daughter ABOUT mercy (so that she could ask for it for herself)... because HE was not a merciful man! No, he was veangeful... and his thirst for vengeance, NOT against the Ammonites, but against his BROTHERS... rather than HIS forgiveness and mercy... is what led him to make that rash vow.
Read the account, please, and stop relying on what [you think] you know... based on what you were taught about that account by the WTBTS. Please.
There are of course other examples in the Bible, im just highlighting one which is undisputable.
Unfortunately, I've just disputed that one. Again, re-read the ENTIRE account and not just the part where he makes the vow and then his daughter comes out. SO much more there than that.
Given the hundreds of thousands of families in Egypt, how exactly does Joseph manage to listen and allocate grain to each and every one ? Even if he worked 24 hours a day 7 days a week, he would never have scene more than a tiny fraction of them. This is the same nonsense as the Solomon story where its claimed he litens and solves problems of his subjects.
I think you... and perhaps others here... greatly overestimate the population of Egypt at the time. Remember, we're not talking about the time of the exodus... but some 400 or so years BEFORE.
Have you ever tried to contact your local representative ? Most have a terrority with barely 30,000 or so (well its like that here) and its next to impossible to get a one on one meeting with them.
Yes, I have. My occupation calls for it. My city council, Mayor, Governor, and both Senate and House reps. And while I can imagine it's difficult in some places, this is Oakland, one of the most political cities in the country, let alone in California. Even so, surely you understand that a leader of Joseph's day was NOTHING like the politicians of today. There was no "recess", no vacationing in the Bahamas, etc. You (and probably some others here) keep trying to understand events of several thousand years ago not ONLY in the light of today's populations, demographics, and politics... but even culture and society. You really should be looking at this from a POV of, say, modern Afghanistan, Kurdistan, etc. Which is MUCH closer to what Egypt was back THEN.
How SOlomon managed to find the time for a country with at least a few million is one of lifes great stories.
Same way Bloomberg finds the time for a city with such? Although, Solomon was apparently distracted by a bevy of women, so... doesn't sound like he was all that "on the ball"... in the end.
I do hope this clarifies for you, though, dear mp. If not, please don't hesitate to let me know; I am more than happy to revisit anything you might wish to so as to gain some additional clarity as to these things.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-
EntirelyPossible
I think you... and perhaps others here... greatly overestimate the population of Egypt at the time. Remember, we're not talking about the time of the exodus... but some 400 or so years BEFORE.
So, the link you provided doesn't easily show a population for that time, but they do give an educated guess of 1.5 million circa 2500 B.C. If, as you say, all the grain was concentrated into cities (after being moved from the farming regions), People had to travel to the cities to find it, then transport it back to where they came from, all while waiting in line for Joseph and figureing out where he was? Was it a single city, multiple cities?
Logistically this is not making sense.
Same way Bloomberg finds the time for a city with such?
Bloomberg is a mayor and what he does is not what you are claiming Joseph did.
-
AGuest
People had to travel to the cities to find it, then transport it back to where they came from, all while waiting in line for Joseph and figureing out where he was?
Well, I mean, his own brothers had to travel back and forth more than once AND wait... before they received anything. You think Joseph would make his own father wait longer than he did anyone else? But no, that's not what occurred. What occurred is that most left their lands and permanently migrated to where the grain was. No point in going back... only to turn around and come back for more grain once that supply gone. The famine was due to a drought... so it was not like they could, say, plant a sack and grow more.
it a single city, multiple cities?
Multiple but not many (less than 10)... and all within close proximity. Hence, his fancy chariot, which had turbo boosters... long before NASA even knew what those were...
Logistically this is not making sense.
Because, like SO many, you're trying to "see" something that occurred thousands of years ago by today's "standards." You're picturing today's bread lines. Why? Nothing suggests that. Indeed, folks had to BUY grain, so apparently there was money to do so. You think people waited until they were down to the last grain and THEN took off for Egypt? Or that once there they only bought, like, what, one sack and took it back? Back to WHAT? And how long do you think a sack of grain would have lasted Israel, his 11 sons... and ALL of their households?
People had to buy grain and they had to go to the few cities where it could be purchased. And once there... they stayed there. In addition, if you rememeber (maybe you don't), Joseph had previously been over Potiphar's house. And what's the MAIN function of such a position? To ensure that the householder's belongings are increased. So, you don't think Joseph's purpose was, while he was in charge, to also increase Pharaoh's coffers? Grain was a scarce commodity... and so drew a HIGH price.
So, a few things were occuring:
Folks were migrating to Pharaoh's cities... which was increasing the populations and creating metropolises... which required greater services... and so more money... for which the grain was sold to cover... while increase Pharaoh's wealth.
C'mon... you can DO this: SEE Egypt back then... and not through the "eyes" of Hollywood. Cleopatra didn't come until some time later... and even then, the Hollywood version take GREAT artistic license. We're only talking about three generations after Abraham... and about 4-6 before Moses.
And the reference to Bloomber was as to mp's question re Solomon, not Joseph.
A slave of Christ,
SA
-
EntirelyPossible
What occurred is that most left their lands and permanently migrated to where the grain was. No point in going back... only to turn around and come back for more grain once that supply gone.
So if all the farmers that raised grain and cattle moved to the city, how did they get food AFTER the drought was over? And how did people in the cities get grain while waiting for Joseph? Was it one city? Multiple cities? Was Egypt supporting only Egyptians or the entire Levant area?
The famine was due to a drought... so it was not like they could, say, plant a sack and grow more.
Unless you lived by a natural spring, river or lake, I suppose.
Multiple but not many (less than 10)... and all within close proximity. Hence, his fancy chariot, which had turbo boosters... long before NASA even knew what those were...
Ah, sarcasm to deflect fromt he fact that you don't know. Got it.
Because, like SO many, you're trying to "see" something that occurred thousands of years ago by today's "standards." You're picturing today's bread lines.
Hmmm.... so you not making sense somehow translates into you deciding what I am thinking of? You're incorrect, I am not picturing bread lines. Your story just doesn't add up.
You think people waited until they were down to the last grain and THEN took off for Egypt?
I am not making claims about the story. Your logisitics don't add up.
Folks were migrating to Pharaoh's cities... which was increasing the populations and creating metropolises... which required greater services... and so more money... for which the grain was sold to cover... while increase Pharaoh's wealth.
Supposedly, this occured in a very short time. Where did they live?
There was a drought, where did they get water?
How did they keep earning money to buy grain?
What "services" was the Pharoh offering that cost money? School? Sanitation? Healthcare? Police force?
Most people bartered or made their own for what they needed, where did they get the money to buy grain continually for a 7 year drought as you say they did?
Was it scarce or was there enough to feed, not only the Egyptians, but also all of these immigrants from the Levant?
This is not making sense.
-
AGuest
So if all the farmers that raised grain and cattle moved to the city, how did they get food AFTER the drought was over?
Took grain, went back out the country and planted? Like most folks do after a drought?
And how did people in the cities get grain while waiting for Joseph? Was it one city? Multiple cities? Was Egypt supporting only Egyptians or the entire Levant area?
Don't know the details of the first question, answered as to the second and third, and "all of Egypt." So, whatever lands came under Egypt (which included Canaan) at the time. Which could have been wider than the Levant (which you know didn't actually exist until the 15th century, right?)
Unless you lived by a natural spring, river or lake, I suppose.
You do understand what a drought is, right?
Ah, sarcasm to deflect fromt he fact that you don't know. Got it.
No, I was being serious... and just trying to "dude" things up a bit for you. No sarcasm intended at ALL. Humor, yes. Sarcasm, not in the least. Truly.
Hmmm.... so you not making sense somehow translates into you deciding what I am thinking of? You're incorrect, I am not picturing bread lines. Your story just doesn't add up.
Well, okay. I mean, you asked. Which brings ME to ask: why do you keep asking questions for which you cannot receive answers? I mean, I think YOU think that you're "examining" me, but the truth is that you're really only giving me more opportunity to explain to others who might truly be curious. Somehow, I don't think that's what you intend... so I thought I had better give you a heads up. But THANKS for the opportunity. You folks actually provide a lot of that.
I am not making claims about the story. Your logisitics don't add up.
Well, I mean, you DO need more than ten fingers and ten toes (okay, yeah, that was sarcasm... and meant to be - but you made it SO easy - )
Supposedly, this occured in a very short time. Where did they live?
Who?
There was a drought, where did they get water?
De'nile (which you know a little sumpin'-sumpon' about). It didn't dry up... just the tributaries, lakes, etc. C'mon... do your research...
How did they keep earning money to buy grain?
Processing grain... building ships... and chariots... and pyramids... and sphinxes... and stuff. Selling obelisks... mummy cases/urns... scarabs. Painting hieroglyphs. You know, the usual stuff you find in the Egyptian display of any sundry museum giftshop. What, you don't think those things are "antiques"??
What "services" was the Pharoh offering that cost money? School? Sanitation? Healthcare? Police force?
Ummmm... what, you think Egyptians were uneducated and unhygenic? Didn't have doctors and armed guards? Oh, wait... maybe you're one of those people who watch movies like "Cleopatra"... and see all those "armies" and just think, "Oh, wow... look at all the VOLUNTEERS!" You DO know that there was no slavery in Egypt at the time... right? That such came about 400 or so years LATER?
Most people bartered or made their own for what they needed,
Sure, a chariot for, say, a coffin. A robe for some fragrant oil (although, some of those oils STANK!), sure. But if you KNEW what was going on, what'd ask ME for?
where did they get the money to buy grain continually for a 7 year drought as you say they did?
Ummm... who said they used money? Although, I'm sure some did, so paycheck?
[A whistle blows... and Anuk and his quarrymate Ptolemy drop their rock picks and head for the timeclock to punch out for the evening:
"Man!" says Anuk, "I can't WAIT to get home - Cleo's makin' fish with leeks and onions tonight!"
"LEEKS AND ONIONS!!" shouts Ptolemy. "Where'd you get the money to buy leeks and onions? Stupid Tut, cut my hours last week so I only had enough to buy a quart of that nasty-butt grain again. Miriam put that with some fish, but d'Nile is SO putrid I could smell it cooking before I even parked my chariot in the driveway! How you affordin' leeks, man?"
Anuk shrugs, "OT. And Cleo's got a little money stashed. We're saving up for a 2013 BCE spitfire two-wheeler... man, you should see the one down at Barak's Motors... sweeeeeeet! but it's our anniversary and she asked me what I wanted for dinner and I said 'Some FRESH fish for a change, you know, from the Mediterranean... none of the mushy stuff from d'Nile... wit' sum leeks and unyuns!' So..."
"Man, you got it GOOD right now" Ptolemy pouts and kicks a rock... then lets out small yelp (he'd forgotten to bring his steel-toed sandals to work today and so had to work in his open-toe sandals). "Ow! Dang rock!" he mutters under his breath, then, "Yeah, well, I gotta get over to to Potiphar's Check Cashing and get my ends, man, so check you, later. Have a good one and thank 'about me when you eatin' that good fish!"
The two men part ways, one on foot, the other heads toward an older model chariot with several missing wheelspokes parked at the curb. He unties the reins, climbs up, slaps the reins across the back of an old grey swayback and shouts "Hah!" The two take off, the rickety chariot careening from left to right as it tumbles down the sandy street. Somewhere in the background an anubis barks....]
Was it scarce or was there enough to feed, not only the Egyptians, but also all of these immigrants from the Levant?
"Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from Pharaoh’s presence and traveledthroughout Egypt. During the seven years of abundance the land produced plentifully. Joseph collected all the food produced in those seven years of abundance in Egypt and stored it in the cities. In each city he put the food grown in the fields surrounding it. Joseph stored up huge quantities of grain, like the sand of the sea; it was so much that he stopped keeping records because it was beyond measure."
This is not making sense.
Yes, I can see that. Maybe you should consider taking up "Egyptian"? You know, 'cause the English doesn't seem to be working for you?
A slave of Christ,
SA
-
EntirelyPossible
Took grain, went back out the country and planted? Like most folks do after a drought?
You said grain was scarce, now there was plenty for seven year, plus a return trip and to last through another planting season? Not making sense.
You do understand what a drought is, right?
Of course. It's a lack of rain.
No, I was being serious... and just trying to "dude" things up a bit for you. No sarcasm intended at ALL. Humor, yes. Sarcasm, not in the least. Truly.
So you seriously don't know. OK.
Well, okay. I mean, you asked. Which brings ME to ask: why do you keep asking questions for which you cannot receive answers?
I'm receiving the answers, they just don't make sense, so it prompts more questions.
De'nile (which you know a little sumpin'-sumpon' about). It didn't dry up... just the tributaries, lakes, etc. C'mon... do your research...
So there WAS water to plant things? Earlier you implied there wasn't with your "you do know what a drought is" comment. There wasn't water but there was, the grain was scarce but plentiful....interesting contradictions here. So, which lakes dried up?
Who?
I am asking where all the migrants in the city lived. A sudden influx of people into any urban area would create quite the housing crisis.
Processing grain... building ships... and chariots... and pyramids... and sphinxes... and stuff. Selling obelisks... mummy cases/urns... scarabs. Painting hieroglyphs. You know, the usual stuff you find in the Egyptian display of any sundry museum giftshop. What, you don't think those things are "antiques"??
So ... a sarcastic non-answer.
Ummmm... what, you think Egyptians were uneducated and unhygenic? Didn't have doctors and armed guards? Oh, wait... maybe you're one of those people who watch movies like "Cleopatra"... and see all those "armies" and just think, "Oh, wow... look at all the VOLUNTEERS!" You DO know that there was no slavery in Egypt at the time... right? That such came about 400 or so years LATER?
Another sarcastic non-answer. Don't you know?
Sure, a chariot for, say, a coffin. A robe for a anubia, sure. But if you KNEW what was going on, what'd ask ME for?
This is incorrect.
Ummm... who said they used money? Although, I'm sure some did, so paycheck?
So, with a drought, a sudden influx of labor, no food growing, how did the economy sustain paying all of these people? Details!
Yes, I can see that. Maybe you should consider taking up "Egyptian"? You know, 'cause the English doesn't seem to be working for you?
Another attempt at sacarsm to deflect from your non-answers.
-
mP
AGuest:
mP; Ive read the entire text that you wrote but i am totally confused.
No worries, dear mp (good morning, and peace to you!). Let's see if we can help you get some clarity.
mP: Why you call God by his Jewish name Jehovah ?
I don't. I never use that name. There is no "Jehovah." Why do you think I call Him by such?
mP:
Well you keep using the OT and defending God who everyone else is calling Jehovah here. If your god is completely different then why participate "here" without clearly stating you are talking about someone else.?
By talking about "God" here, you look to side with the "God" everyone else is speaking about.
-
mP
TEC:
Unless the question is wrong in some way, Punk.
Sort of like that question... 'Did you stop beating your wife?'
Peace,
tammy
mP:
You are being dishonest here and everywhere. Your views are almost always based on selecting a tiny text and sometimes redefining words or inserting custom background to come to some point of view. You always seem to forget the remainder of the unpleasent text which shows your view to be wrong. Almost none of your views are based raw reading of bible scripture.We had this discussion and you stopped replying when i provided more scriptures to support my view and the best you could do was give one or two lines and conveniently omit the trouble text about it.
-
mP
AGuest:
mP:
Imagine if God made a statement here and said HUman sacrifice is wrong at the very least Jepthahs daughter would have lived.
It WRONG... as well as VERY stupid and unloving of Jepthah! Okay, so he wanted what he wanted - SURELY, he could have vowed a cow or something! Heck, his OWN life! But no, like Adham, we vowed his DAUGHTER! Who DOES that?? YOU'RE confused, though, because YOU'VE been taught... and so buy into... the WTBTS wicked use of that story to convince its members to dedicate their children to THEM... and for such children to go... willingly... even if it means their death!!
"Surely, dear brothers, as Jephthah dedicated his daughter to be sacrificed, literally, to Gawd, you should, too! And you children, should you not go willingly to your death if your parents so dedicate you?!"
mP:
Jephthah was a high priest of Israel. I would suggest you go back and read the text if you dont blieve me. Why is a high priest making such an offensive "deal" with Jehovah in the first place. Imagine anybody went to church and made such a promise infront of the public. They should go straight to jail and yet "Jehovah" rewards him. I dont think we need to contnue discussing if the paymet was given, i think its obvious it was. The fact the offer was made in thef irst place is down right evil. If you want to discuss proofs for showing he did sacrifice his daughter go ahead and ask.
In both cases the ancient men of God participate in human sacrifice to some form. If they were good they should have said God i dont do that stuff no matter what. Thats a real test, doing the right thing even when its hard regardlss of the pressure from the outside.
What kind of sickos even think of maybe making such an offer int he first place ? J as i mentioned above was not an uneducated nobody he was a high priest and leader of the community. What kind of example did he set. i will repeat its a terrible one. Whats even sadder is the text does not make any commentary to emphasize just how wrong the story is. We never hear anything like approaching a reproach.