The "Tree of Life and its meaning"
by EdenOne 169 Replies latest jw friends
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EdenOne
cofty and cantleave,
Science has a lot going for it, but as you also must honestly admit, it's not error-free, and it's not fraud-free. Science also has a lot of "new light" that causes some "truths" (AKA scientific facts) to be replaced by "new understandings" (AKA new studies, newer technology, correction of mistakes). If we lived 100 years ago you would still believe that the smallest particle in the universe was the atom. And yet, now we know there are all sorts exotic tiny particles, much much smaller than atoms. The "state of the art" in science is constantly changing, and it's certainly not static. I'm coming from a background in social sciences and history, so I'm not very qualified to discuss physics, biology or mathematics. If that's your expertise, I'm sure you could crush me on those subjects.
Still, I don't see why wouldn't it be possible for God to use processes of creation and processes of evolution simultaneously. I really don't think there's an impossibility, at least in concept, for that.
Eden
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EdenOne
Gladiator,
I'm not a creationist, and I don't have any problems accepting that trees converted carbon dioxide into oxygen for millions of years, before other life forms who depended on oxygen could could come to existance and thrive.
Eden
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Marvin Shilmer
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EdenOne,
You’ve put together a theological finding of the tree of life. It cooks down to either loving or not loving God.
Now what?
Marvin Shilmer
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cofty
it's not error-free, and it's not fraud-free. Science also has a lot of "new light" that causes some "truths" (AKA scientific facts) to be replaced by "new understandings"
There is a constant refinement of understanding in science but there are many things that are certainties.
Do you think that in 100 years time we might decide that the earth is flat after all? Of course not. To the very same degree of certainty we can say that humans evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years. There is lots to be discoverd about the details but that basic fact is solid.
Your article on the Tree of life is based on an unscientific assumption. In fact your entire theology and specifically your soteriology is based on a myth.
If it was me I wouldn't want to be wrong any longer than necessary. Why don't you put your bible studies aside for a while and get the facts sorted out then go back and see how you can reconcile your theology with reality? If you don't do that you are wasting your time and misleading others.
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james_woods
If it was me I wouldn't want to be wrong any longer than necessary. Why don't you put your bible studies aside for a while and get the facts sorted out then go back and see how you can reconcile your theology with reality? If you don't do that you are wasting your time and misleading others.
>>> +1 million, Cofty.
Perhaps he should start by deciding whether or not to continue attending the Kingdom Hall while doing this nonsense?
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Marvin Shilmer
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“Science has a lot going for it, but as you also must honestly admit, it's not error-free, and it's not fraud-free.”
EdenOne,
Here’s a big difference:
- Scientific findings are conclusions of logical argumentation using accepted premises.
- Watchtower teachings are conclusions of argumentation using preferential premises.
Here’s another big difference:
- The interest of science is growing our knowledge of the universe.
- The interest of Watchtower is growing its religion business.
Here’s a similarity:
- Fraud masquerading as “science” is dishonesty at work.
- Fraud masquerading as “the truth” is dishonesty at work.
Marvin Shilmer
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AGuest
What of the releasing of Satan after a thousand years? how does this event develop?
Greetings and peace to you, dear Monsieur! The events occur this way:
1. The sealing of the slaves of God "from among the Sons of Israel" is completed (their co-rulers, people from EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue... are gathered at the same time, but their number is filled first, before those of Israel are sealed, and it is only Israel that IS sealed... to ensure the promise to Abraham is secure) -Revelation 7:3; Romans 11:25; Genesis 22:15-18
2. The unleashing of the four "winds" upon the earth, from the region of the Euphrates, during the 6th trumpet, which is the impetus for the “tribulation”, which comes as a result - Revelation 9:13-21; Matthew 24:7-22
3. Immediately after the tribulation has concluded, my Lord returns, announced by the 7 th and “last trumpet” and gathers his chosen ones, which includes those have died by resurrection (the “first” resurrection), and those who have not died by a “changing” (metamorphoso) and takes them “home” (to the Father’s house – the spirit realm) where they are joined to him – Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 10:1; 5:1-10; 20:5, 6; John 14:2, 3; John 11:25, 26
4. While they are away being “married” (in the spirit), Michael, to whom my Lord has given the key to the abyss, chains and abysses the one called “Satan” and “Devil” – Revelation 20:1; 12:7
5. Their “marriage” now complete, my Lord and his Bride, NEW Jerusalem, “come down out of heaven” (ie., return to the physical realm) and begin their co-rulership UPON the earth (note, my Lord has already been ruling for some time, having received his kingdom in 30CE; it is now that he is SHARING that rulership with his beloved ones... for about a thousand years. Their rulership, though, is limited to that period; his, however, is not) – Revelation 21:2-4; 20:4; 5:9, 10; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Psalm 110:1, 2; Daniel 7:14
6. This rulership consists of these acting as “kings” and “priests” and “separating” those who are designated as “sheep” from those who are considered “goats.” The sheep are granted entry into the “city”... New Jerusalem... while the goats are cut off from entry. The goats are NOT destroyed at that time, but just simply prohibited from “entering.” They are kings in that have AUTHORITY to judge any of these... but priests in that they DON’T judge... but plead for mercy for these. In the end, it is such ones’ own mouths and actions that “judge” them – Revelation 20:4; 21:2-4; Matthew 25:31-46; Matthew 7:1, 2; 5:22-24; John 12:47-48; Mark 7:20-23
7. During this time “Satan” is abyssed and so there is no influence from HIM to mislead or exploit the internal “desires” of any man – each will stand based on what’s in his/her own heart. James 1:13-15; Luke 4:3-12; Genesis 3:1-5; Job 1:12; 2:6, 7
8. When the “thousand years” have ended “Satan” is loosed. He goes out to mislead Gog and Magog to come against the Holy City and its encampment. (“Gog” being those who were considered “goats”... and “Magog” being the wicked spirit beings that were hurled out of the spirit realm with “Satan”, which are NOT those “reserved in Tartarus - which is the “abyss” and which are those confined by the Flood waters or cast into the water with the swine – but those hurled down with “Satan” but not abyssed with him; he was abyssed alone!) – Revelation 12:9; 20:1-3, 7; Luke 8:30-33; 2 Peter 2:4
9. Satan uses his own FALSE “truth”... as well as false “truth” from the wild beast and the false prophet which are supposedly “from God” (i.e., three unclean inspired expressions and so they look like frogs)to mislead these, Gog and Magog... into thinking that they can actually access the Tree of Life in the MIDDLE of the Holy City, New Jerusalem. They all know that if they can get to that Tree and EAT... they will live forever. So, he convinces them that they can actually take the City by war, conquer, enter, and eat. Revelation 20:7-9a; 16:13-16; Genesis 3:22-24; 2 Corinthians 11:14; 1 Timothy 2:14
10. Letting them access that Tree and eat... and LIVE FOREVER... cannot be allowed, though, because these are EVIL spirits, ones who would seek their own end and glory, but unknowingly, by doing so, actually fully empowering the one called “Satan.” Hence, he MISLEADS them (they think he’s trying to help them get eternal life, when his only aim is to obtain it for himself and so he is simply using them!). Ezekiel 28:17; Luke 4:5, 6; Matthew 9:34; 12:24; John 12:31; 14:30; 26:11
11. And so there is VERY BRIEF war (THE War... of the [the great day of] God Almighty): these, Gog and Magog “surround” the “encampment” (made up of the “sheep” who were separated from the “goats” and also given white robes and invited into the “City” of the marriage “feast”) as well as the beloved Holy City itself (made up the holy ones and faithful ones... starting with the Tree of Life, himself – Christ, the True Vine and CORNERSTONE; the Apostles and Prophets, who make up the Foundation, Gates, and Pillars; and the rest, who constitute the “living stones” in her... she being the TEMPLE of God and the “place” where His Spirit “dwells”)... and prepare to attack “her” so as to enter and gain access to the Tree that is in the MIDST of her. BUT... fire comes down from the mouth of JAH Himself... and devours them! – Revelation 20:9; Ezekiel 38:18-23; Psalm 18:4-19; Hebrews 12:29; 2 Peter 3:5-10
12. He then hurls the wild beast, the false prophet, and the one called “Satan,” into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna)... where they all burn... for a VERY long time (but NOT forever; they DO come to their end. The words “forever and ever” are a mistransliteration of an intent to mean a very, very, very... very... long time) – Revelation 20:10; Ezekiel 28:18, 19; Daniel 7:11
13. Once this is complete, my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, hands the kingdom BACK to the Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... for the Judgment. He, JAH, sits down on His throne... and the Judgment begins. Since the “thousand years” have ended, Christ’s co-rulers are no longer kings/priests – their co-rulership has come to an end. Christ, though, hands to kingdom to the Father... so that THAT One can judge, as well as bring to an end ALL of my Lord’s enemies, including death – Revelation 20:11; Daniel 7:9; 1 Corinthians 15:24
14. And so the Judgment starts:
a. JAH sits down ... and is given two (2) “scrolls” –
(1) The “Book of Remembrance,” in which are the deeds... good AND bad... of everyone who did not take part in the first resurrection (because, along with those who are changed at that time... and those deemed as sheep for doing good to these... such have already been given life, because their names are written in the other book/scroll) - Daniel 7:10; Revelation 20:12
(2) The “(Lamb’s) Book of Life” - Exodus 32:33; Psalm 56:8; 69:28; 139:16; Daniel 12:1; Malachi 13:16; Romans 8:1; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 13:8; 21:27
b. And the “second” (general) resurrection commences, with the sea, death, and Hades giving up those dead “in them”, including the rest of Israel – Revelation 20:5, 6, 13; Ezekiel 37:1-14; Romans 11:26; Acts 2:2-4
c. Those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book (which includes ALL of Israel, because they are the ones he actually give his life for FIRST) have their bad deeds (sins) covered by the blood of the Lamb and so blotted out of the Book of Remembrance. They are given ‘white robes’, too... and granted access to the beloved “Holy City.” Daniel 12:2; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15
d. Those who names are NOT written in the Lamb’s Book ... are judged... based on their bad deeds (sins)... which STAND... because they have no covering (the blood of the Lamb, as evidenced by their names being written in HIS Book). Since the price for sin is death/destruction... and because there is no redemption for them... these are condemned... to everlasting destruction in the Lake of Fire. Where death, the lastenemy... and his world... are also “hurled.” – Revelation 20:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15
Once all of this has taken place, the “heavens” and the “earth” will have been cleansed, and the things “in the heavens and on earth” FULLY reconciled to God. At that point, my Lord is given the kingdom as HIS... ENTIRELY... to rule over forever... which he will spread throughout the physical realm. It will not be passed on to anyone else. At that time, JAH no longer rules but becomes all IN all and TO all. However, free will still exists and any who can’t live by his terms... are simply cast out – Daniel 7:13, 14; Revelation 22:14, 15
I hope this helps, dear one, and again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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cofty
A never-ending North Korea.
At least in North Korea your thoughts are not monitored by the Illustrious Leader.
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EdenOne
cofty,
100 years ago, the atom was the smallest particle in the universe and that was considered the definitive truth about the matter. Within 100 years, the Higgs Boson particle may well not be the smallest particle in the universe. You consider this "constant refining of understanding" ? Well, so do I. But you're willing to bet your life that the current state of the art of science is "THE truth". As if your current perception of the universe and reallity is the only one possible. Even you, as a man who enjoys science, should be ready to admit that science accomodates the notion of other possible realities and paralell dimentions that we don't perceive. In true honesty, you cannot be an atheist without an element of faith. In true honesty you cannot prove that something doesn't exist. At best you can say that since you don't have tangible empirical evidence of the existence of X, then you cannot assert that X exists. That is the intellectually honest answer. When someone emphatically claims that God doesn't exist, that is a declaration of belief, of faith. Your faith is therefore as good as mine. You have faith in reason, I have faith in God. The advantage of believing in God is that I can also enjoy reason, while you cannot enjoy God.
Now, I can live with your faith. Why is it difficult for you to tolerate mine? Because religion has hurt people? Well, hasn't science hurt people as well? Or maybe you think that only the ignorant unintelligent folk believe in God? Then you may well go ahead and call me that. And the mirror will then point back right at you.
Another thing: Why does an article about a subject of faith needs to be filtered by science to get a certificate of asepticism? Is this the thought police?
Eden