If Jesus is god???!!!

by El_Guapo 54 Replies latest jw friends

El_Guapo

So a brother emailed me this a a battle plan for speaking to people who believe in the trinity?
*** I haven't gone to fieldservice in over 3 months, but I guess this is helpful***
IF JESUS IS GOD…1. Why is he called the “firstborn” of all creation? (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14)
2. Why did he say that he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent? (John 8:42; 1 John 4:9)
3. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great Tribulation but God did? (Mt. 24:36)
4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer? (Mt. 26:36)
5. How did he “appear before the person of God for us”? (Heb. 9:24)
6. Why did Jesus say “the father is greater than I am”? (John 14:28; Phil. 2:5, 6)
7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying “this is my son”? (Mt. 3:17)
8. How could he be exalted to a superior position? (Phil. 2:9, 10)
9. How can he be the “Mediator between God and Man”? (1Tim. 2:5)
10. Why did Paul say “the head of Christ is God”? (1Cor. 11:30)
11. Why did Jesus “Hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject himself to God”? (1Cor. 15:24, 28)
12. Who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? (John 20:17)
13. How does he sit at God’s right hand? (Ps. 110:1; Heb. 10:12, 13)
14. Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time”? (John 1:18)
15. Why did not people die when they saw Jesus? (Ex. 30:20)
16. How was Jesus Dead and God alive at the same time? (Acts 2:24)
17. Why did he need someone to save him? (Heb. 5:7)
18. Who is referred to prophetically at Proverbs 8:22-31?
19. Why did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven and on earth”? (Mt. 4:11; Dan 7:13, 14)
20. Why did he have godly fear? (Heb. 5:7)
21. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? (Heb. 5:8, 9)
22. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or angels minister to him? (Luke 22:43; Mt. 4:11)
23. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he KNEW that he was GOD? (Mt. 4:1-11)
24. Jesus when sent to the earth was made to “be Lower” than the angels. (Heb. 2:7) How could any part of a God Head EVER be lower than the angels he created?
25. If Jesus was the same as God, who was he being tempted to rebel against? Could God be tempted to rebel against himself? (Mt. 4:1)
26. Near the end of his earthly life, Jesus cried out “My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mt. 27:46) Can God desert or forsake himself?
27. (Heb. 5:8) says that Jesus learned obedience! To whom would he obey if he was GOD? And does God need to learn anything?
28. God’s justice is strictly perfect. (Ex. 21:23-25) The ransom price was one perfect human for another. An imperfect man’s life would be too low. (Ps. 49:7) If Jesus was the same as God, the ransom price paid by a God would have been too high. Adam was a perfect MAN and the ransom price was a perfect MAN, not higher or lower.
sir82

Most of these objections were answered well over 1500 years ago.
The rest hinge on the "straw-man" definition of "trinity" that the WTS sets up. 99%+ of trinitarians don't believe in what the WTS says is "the trinity".
By the way, I'm no trinitarian, but the argument interests me. The WTS really should just shut up about the trinity, if they are going to be intellectually dishonest in their arguments.
Much the same as they should just shut up about evolution, homosexuality, masturbation, child abuse, divorce.....and several dozen other topics.
unstopableravens

yes he is god,he not the father, they all have answers ,i have always like number three ask them to read rev 19:10,11
Band on the Run

A large body of Christians don't believe Jesus of Nazareth, the historical person, was conscious of his Godhood. If you are almighty God and created the very universe, what is crucifixion?
I've studied the Trinity over the decades. There is no express statement of whether Jesus is God or whether Jesus is not God in the scriptures. Anyone who believes one way or the other is extrapolating from the scriptures. Paul's letters frequently open with what are to believed the earliest creeds of the Church. They are hymns, veering in the direction that Christ was God. If Jesus was subordinate, I don't believe Paul would have included such statements. The fallback would be a Jewish perspective, where no human is remotely similar to God. My particular faith uses the Nicene Creed. Few priests would be willing to be martyred for the Nicene formula. Progressive Christians believe the Trinity is an attempt to describe the various aspects of God in our lives. No two people experience God in the same way. One person may experience God in a myriad ways. If you accept the Bible as inerrant and the Bible does not support either view, why support any view?
Londo111

JWs believe the Trinity doctrine is Modalism and they are primed toward arguing against Modalism, a concept Trinitarians would argue against as well.
PSacramento

Of course, if Jesus is "a god" as per the NWT, then many a Christian, inculding his apostles, are guilty of polytheisim.
Ding

Here are replies from a Trinitarian perspective:
IF JESUS IS GOD…
1. Why is he called the “firstborn” of all creation? (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14)
Because prototokos (translated "firstborn") means "pre-eminent", not "first created." See the Col. 1:16 for the context. It doesn't say, firstborn because in that he was the first thing created. It says firstborn (pre-eminent) in that by Him all things in heaven and earth were created."
2. Why did he say that he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent? (John 8:42; 1 John 4:9)
Because he was sent. The Father and the Son have different roles. The Father sent him.
3. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great Tribulation but God did? (Mt. 24:36)
Because he limited himself when he became a man (see Philippians 2). He was not omnipresent, for example. He became hungry and thirsty, for example.
4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer? (Mt. 26:36)
The Father.
5. How did he “appear before the person of God for us”? (Heb. 9:24)
The Trinity doctrine states that three Persons are God. Jesus stood before God the Father for us.
6. Why did Jesus say “the father is greater than I am”? (John 14:28; Phil. 2:5, 6)
Because when he became a man, Jesus became lower than the angels for the suffering of death. Hebrews 2:7.
7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying “this is my son”? (Mt. 3:17)
The Father.
8. How could he be exalted to a superior position? (Phil. 2:9, 10)
Because when he became a man, he was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death.
9. How can he be the “Mediator between God and Man”? (1Tim. 2:5)
Because He is both God and man.
10. Why did Paul say “the head of Christ is God”? (1Cor. 11:30)
Because Christ is both God and man, and Paul was referring to God the Father. The Father and Son are of the same ontological essence but have different roles.
11. Why did Jesus “Hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject himself to God”? (1Cor. 15:24, 28)
Because Christ is both God and man and the Father and Son have different roles.
12. Who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? (John 20:17)
The Father. Jesus became a man. As such, the Father was his God.
13. How does he sit at God’s right hand? (Ps. 110:1; Heb. 10:12, 13)
Three Persons. Same essence. Different roles.
14. Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time”? (John 1:18)
Interesting question, given that Exodus 24:10 says that Moses and 70 elders went up the mountain "and saw the God of Israel." The entire quote in John says that no man has seen God at any time but that the Son has revealed him. No man has seen the entire Trinity at any time, but they have seen the Son, who is God.
15. Why did not people die when they saw Jesus? (Ex. 30:20)
For the same reason that Moses and the 70 elders did not die when they saw the God of Israel. It's not automatic.
16. How was Jesus Dead and God alive at the same time? (Acts 2:24)
Because death of a human being does not extinguish his soul or his spirit as the WT believes.
17. Why did he need someone to save him? (Heb. 5:7)
The reference is to saving him from death, not to saving him from sins. As a man, Jesus was able to die and entrusted himself totally to the Father. The Father and Son have different roles.
18. Who is referred to prophetically at Proverbs 8:22-31?
It is not a prophecy. It is Hebrew poetry about wisdom.
19. Why did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven and on earth”? (Mt. 4:11; Dan 7:13, 14)
Because as a man, Jesus was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death. As such, he depended solely on the Father.
20. Why did he have godly fear? (Heb. 5:7)
Because he was also a man. Godly fear doesn't mean cringing. It means the sort of reverence a man should have for God, and Jesus was fully human as well as fully divine.
21. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? (Heb. 5:8, 9)
Because he had a human as well as a divine nature, because he was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death, and as a human being he had to learn as we all do.
22. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or angels minister to him? (Luke 22:43; Mt. 4:11)
Because Jesus was also a man.
23. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he KNEW that he was GOD? (Mt. 4:1-11)
Because Jesus was also a man.
24. Jesus when sent to the earth was made to “be Lower” than the angels. (Heb. 2:7) How could any part of a God Head EVER be lower than the angels he created?
Ontologically, he was not lower than the angels. In Hebrews 1:6, the Father commanded the angels to worship Jesus even though POSITIONALLY Jesus was lower than the angels because he humbled himself. Analogy: The TV show "Undercover Boss" where the CEO temporarily works under the authority of those who are lower in rank than he.
25. If Jesus was the same as God, who was he being tempted to rebel against? Could God be tempted to rebel against himself? (Mt. 4:1)
Against the Father. The Son is not the same Person as the Father.
26. Near the end of his earthly life, Jesus cried out “My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mt. 27:46) Can God desert or forsake himself?
The Son is not the same Person as the Father. They have different roles. As a man, Jesus was identifying with his ancestor David who wrote those words centuries earlier. See Psalm 22:1.
27. (Heb. 5:8) says that Jesus learned obedience! To whom would he obey if he was GOD? And does God need to learn anything?
The Son would obey the Father. They are not the same Person. They have different roles. When Jesus became a human being, he set aside the independent exercise of his attributes as God and had to learn things as all humans do.
28. God’s justice is strictly perfect. (Ex. 21:23-25) The ransom price was one perfect human for another. An imperfect man’s life would be too low. (Ps. 49:7) If Jesus was the same as God, the ransom price paid by a God would have been too high. Adam was a perfect MAN and the ransom price was a perfect MAN, not higher or lower.
This is WT reasoning, but it's not biblical.
Jesus was more than a perfect man. Did Adam ever walk on water, heal the blind, feed 5000, or raise the dead?
Jesus was one man, yet his ransom didn't simply pay the price for one man to be redeemed. His sacrifice pays the price for as many as will receive him. His death did not atone for Adam's sins alone, but is broad enough to cover our personal sins as well. The WT is wrong in his soteriology. Jesus is far MORE than a perfect counterpart to Adam:
Romans 5:15-17: "15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
Londo111

6. Why did Jesus say “the father is greater than I am”? (John 14:28; Phil. 2:5, 6)
8. How could he be exalted to a superior position? (Phil. 2:9, 10)
I think what could be added in plain English is that the Father always has a greater position than the Son, but is equal in nature. Jesus is exhalted to a greater position than he had before he come to the Earth, but not to a greater nature.
This is a common example: say a human king has a grown son. The son has the same essense or substance as his father. He is equal in nature in every way, fully human. But the king has a greater position. One day, the king appoints his son as co-regent, second only to him. That human son now has a greater position, but his nature is not any greater than it was before. Also--the king and his son are two distinct people and nobody would say they are the same person.
The same way with the Father and Jesus.
Christ Alone

IF JESUS IS GOD…1. Why is he called the “firstborn” of all creation? (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14) - The greek word that is translated "first born" is not the same word that would be used for "first created", as Jehovah's Witnesses think it means. Paul would have used the Greek word "Proto Kitzo" instead of "Prototokos" if he wanted the reader to see that Jesus was a creation of God. Context is key in both scriptures. Colossians is speaking about Jesus right to the inheritance. For proof that this is how the Hebrews understood what "firstborn" meant compare Genesis 41:51,52 where it calls Manasseh the firstborn to Jeremiah 31:9 which calls Ephraim the firstborn. Contradiction? No. The rights of the firstborn were transferred from Manaasseh to Ephraim. The use of the word "first born" referred to Jesus' preeminence OVER creation, not His divine nature.
2. Why did he say that he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent? (John 8:42; 1 John 4:9) - The title "God" does not refer to Jesus' position, but refers to His NATURE. If the President sends someone to do a job for him, this does not change the nature of either the president or the one sent. They are both MAN. MAN is a term of nature, not position, just as GOD is a term of nature, not position. If the Father sent Jesus, that does not make Jesus any less "God". It means that the Father has a role that is different from the Son's role or position. This can be simply seen by Jesus' other title "Son of Man". Jesus is called both "Son of Man" and "Son of God". Both refer to His nature. JWs don't question that Jesus was actually MAN in nature when we use the term "Son of Man". But then why do they change the definition when using the term "Son of God". By using both of these titles for Jesus, the scriptures show that Jesus is both Man and God.
3. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great Tribulation but God did? (Mt. 24:36) - The answer is simple. Jesus is both God and Man. (John 1:1,14, John 20:28; Col 2:9) During Jesus' ministry He was cooperating with the limitations of being a man. As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Mat 14:33; 28:9; Heb 1:6) and was prayed to (1Cor 1:2). Only God may be worshiped and prayed to. But Jesus accepted all worship that was given to Him and Stephen prayed to Jesus as he was being killed.
4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer? (Mt. 26:36) - This question shows the JW's lack of understanding in the Trinity, and I can't help but feel bad for them when they bring up such a silly question, because it shows that in their desire to disprove the doctrine, they show they don't understand it. The Trinity does not state that Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same person. When Jesus prayed, He was praying to His Father. Jesus is a different person than the Father and the Holy Spirit. But they have the same nature. The nature of an angel is ANGEL. The nature of Man is MAN. The nature of God is GOD. There are only 3 people, however, that share the nature of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
5. How did he “appear before the person of God for us”? (Heb. 9:24) - Again, this is assuming that the Trinity says that Jesus is the same person as the Father. This is called modalism, which Christians do not believe in. When the Bible uses the term "God", it can refer to Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. In Heb 9:24 this is saying that Jesus stood before the Father for us. If one backs up just a bit to Heb 1:8, one will see that the Father Himself calls Jesus "God". It says: " But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."
6. Why did Jesus say “the father is greater than I am”? (John 14:28; Phil. 2:5, 6) - Again, this is confusing the issue at hand. Jesus is by nature "God". When Jesus spoke the words at John 14:28, Jesus was on earth as a man. His Father was in a greater POSITION in heaven. This did not refer to Jesus nature. Just read the context. Jesus was saying nothing about His nature, but was instead speaking about POSITION. Hebrews 2:9 confirms this by saying that for a little while Jesus was made lower than the angels. POSITION not NATURE. The scripture here cited at Phil 2 actually makes a strong case in FAVOR of the Trinity. It shows that Jesus emptied Himself of His divinity so as to be made in the likeness of men. Again this goes back to the fact that Jesus is both Man and God (Son of Man, Son of God). As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself a human nature (Col 2:9). He became a man to die for people. A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically a husband has a greater position than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together in love. So Jesus was not denying that He was God in John 14:28. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject tot he laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law, namely sinners (Gal 4:4,5)
7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying “this is my son”? (Mt. 3:17) The Father did. Again a misunderstanding of the Trinity. So sad that JWs do not educate themselves in what they are arguing against. If you are going to disagree with it, at least learn what it actually means first.
8. How could he be exalted to a superior position? (Phil. 2:9, 10) Again, POSITION not NATURE. The Father gave Jesus a superior POSITION. This does not change the fact that the Bible calls Jesus "God" in His nature. The use of this scripture, however, is very interesting. This is the very scripture that condemns JWs for insisting that Jehovah is the most important name and not Jesus. According to this scripture, there is no greater name than that of Jesus.
9. How can he be the “Mediator between God and Man”? (1Tim. 2:5) Here is another scripture that actually affirms the fact that Jesus is God. Jesus is the perfect mediator because He is both God and Man. Interestingly JWs do not have any issue with calling Jesus "Man" in this verse. But they DO have issue with calling Jesus "God".
10. Why did Paul say “the head of Christ is God”? (1Cor. 11:30) - Why did Paul also say the head of a woman is the man? Does the woman have a different nature than man? Or is this referring to POSITION and not NATURE? The woman and the man are both equal in nature. Neither is better than the other. Neither has a different sort of nature, just as Jesus does not have a different nature than the Father.
11. Why did Jesus “Hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject himself to God”? (1Cor. 15:24, 28) See the above comments about POSITION and NATURE.
12. Who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? (John 20:17) - Again, see Hebrews 1:8 where the Father calls Jesus "God". These words of Jesus can be compared to Ex 4:16 where Moses was to serve as God to His brother Aaron. Moses' serving as God to Aaron did not change the fact that Aaron was an equal to Moses in humanity. Similarly, the Father and the Son can be equals as to their Deity, with the Father serving as Head or God to the Son. Hebrews 1:10 also shows that the Father calls the Son "Lord". If the Father can call the Son "Lord" without losing the status of being Lord Himself, the Son can call the Father "God" without losing the status of being God Himself.
13. How does he sit at God’s right hand? (Ps. 110:1; Heb. 10:12, 13) - We are going to start going over the same points again. The Bible calls the Father "God". The Bible also calls the Son "God". The Bible also calls the Holy Spirit "God". So in this context this is showing that Jesus sits down at the right hand of God the Father. To sit at ones right hand means to be in a place of authority. And this is what the reference is to. Jesus is now in a place of ultimate authority and because of this is now in a position to send the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33; John 7:39) and to give gifts to the Church (Eph 4:7-11) Note Acts 5:31 also where it says that God has exalted Christ to His right hand to be prince and savior. However, the scriptures show that ONLY God is savior. (Isa 43:11; Hos 13:4)
14. Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time”? (John 1:18) First read the context, and then do research on what the Bible says about men seeing God. Ex 6:2,3 says that God Almighty was seen face to face. This was not a vision or a dream as God Himself attests in Num 12:6-8. So is there a contradiction? Nope. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else that is also called God. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. They were seeing Jesus. If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem because in John 1, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father) in verse 14 it says that the Word became flesh. In vs 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then in this verse refers to the Father. John 1:18 is merely saying that no one has seen the Father at any time. However, reading the context again gives more proof for the Trinity. John 1 is one of the most perverted of all texts at the hands of the NWT. The translation of John 1:18 actually affirms the Trinity when it says: "Non one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.
15. Why did not people die when they saw Jesus? (Ex. 30:20) - Because Jesus is not the Father.
16. How was Jesus Dead and God alive at the same time? (Acts 2:24) Again, another affirmation of the Trinity here. John 2:19-21 shows that Jesus promised to raise His own body. Acts 2:24 says that God raised Jesus body. Jesus did not go out of existence between His death and resurrection as the JWs believe. Jesus had died in the flesh but was alive in spirit. JWs will argue that Jesus did not raise Himself. However, they can't seem to answer John 2:19-21 where Jesus explicitely states "Destroy this temple an I will raise it again in three days." Jesus was speaking of HIS BODY.
17. Why did he need someone to save him? (Heb. 5:7) The emphasis here is on Jesus' humanity. Jesus limited Himself in taking on the likeness of men as has already been seen in Phil 2:6,7. This is why the scriptures refer to the Father resurrecting Jesus, Jesus resurrecting His own body, and the Holy Spirit resurrecting Jesus. As a man Jesus was not less than God. He remained God throughout his life on earth. The writer of Hebrews is pressing this point, for these struggling believers needed to see that Christ had set the way of obedience before them. They were to be strengthened by looking to HIM who "learned obedience from the things which He suffered. This was the point the writer of Hebrews was making. But it matters not. We have already seen a plethora of evidence that shows that Jesus is called God constantly through the NT.
18. Who is referred to prophetically at Proverbs 8:22-31? - COMPLETE lack of understanding of Proverbs. Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus. It is talking about WISDOM. In fact the first 8 chapters of Proverbs are speaking of wisdom. And personifies wisdom. One cannot just pull Proverbs 8 and apply it to Jesus while not applying the other references to Jesus. For one thing "wisdom" personified here is referring to the female. Also if Jesus is "wisdom" then who is "prudence" with whom wisdom dwells? This application by the WT to Jesus is absolutely baseless, especially when one reads the context.
Christ Alone

I stopped at question 18. The questions started going in circles...

If Jesus is god???!!!

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