If Jesus is god???!!! (page 3)

designs

Why Jesus is not God- It takes 225 million years for our Solar System to rotate around the Milky Way, the last time the earth was in this position dinosaurs were just starting to emerge on the planet. Jesus believed in Genesis and geocentrism.

PSacramento

p.s. - On the polytheism note, calling Jesus "a god" in no way is accurate as it relates to polytheism, as the arguements above are to actual trinitarianism.

If Jesus is " a god" and He is worshipped, as he was by Christians since the beginning of the Christian movement, then they worship more than one God, since they also worship Jesus' Father as God as well.

Polytheisim is the belief and worship of more than one god.

pol·y·the·ism (pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m)

n. The worship of or belief in more than one god.

Nambo

Iam suprised no body has mentioned the account in Daniel 7 were The Son of Man gains access to The Anciet of Days and is then given rukership and power.

Unlike all the other points that can be twisted to suit in the way mere words can, this is a description of an occurrence, like when Steven was stoned and saw Jesus standing at Gods right hand, (note no mention of Steven seeing the Holy Spirit standing at Gods left hand, to me the most suspitious thing about the Trinity is the way it seems to usually involve just two).

I never yet met a Trinitarian who even bothered discussing the Daniel 7 account, they seemed to want it to be ignored as they move onto John 1:1 or something equally ambigious.

Ding

A Trinitarian would see nothing in Daniel 7 that would disprove the doctrine.

The Son of Man comes before God the Father.

Regarding Stephen seeing Christ at God's right hand, does that mean he saw the Father in a physical form? I don't think so. The fact that he doesn't mention the Holy Spirit doesn't mean much to me. The focus was on Christ.

As far as there being only two, not three, what about Matthew 28:19? "Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

One name... three mentioned.

Does it make sense that one would baptize "in the name of" Jehovah, Michael the archangel, and God's impersonal force (as the WT sees it)?

Acts 5:3-4 identifies the Holy Spirit as God.

Those are not isolated verses. I think you will also find the 3 involved in the:

-- Creation of the world

-- Conception of Jesus in Mary's womb

-- Baptism of Jesus

-- Resurrection of Jesus

Christ Alone

I'm not sure that John 1:1 is ambiguous since it very clearly states that Jesus is God. But I'll go for your Daniel 7 challenge. Daniel 7 is absolutely no challenge to the Trinity whatsoever. If you read any of the responses on the last page you will see that the Trinity is all about nature. What "stuff" is Jesus? We are man. That is our nature. The nature of an angel is angel. The nature of God is God. Jesus is the perfect mediator between God and Man because He is both God and Man.

As I said before, JWs do not have any problem with Jesus being a man when they use the phrase "Son of Man". Jesus is a man because he was the son of man. So why suddenly change definitions and deny that when the Bible says that Jesus is also "Son of God" that Jesus is also God?

Position and role is not what is discussed with the Trinity. We are talking about the "stuff" of God. The facts are as follows:

The Scriptures call the Father - God

The Scriptures call Jesus - God

The Scriptures call the Holy Spirit - God

That cannot be denied. But the Trinity never stated that Jesus and the Father are the same person. As is usually the case, the scriptures used to "disprove" the Trinity are the very scriptures that uphold it. Daniel 7 is a clear example. Why? Because only God is to be worshiped.

The scriptures are extremely clear on this point. Jesus Himself said that only God was to be worshiped. Matthew 4:9-10 gives the account of Jesus being tempted by Satan. He quotes OT scripture when he verifies: "‘Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'"

So going back to Daniel 7 with the knowledge that ONLY God is to be worshiped, we read in vs 13,14: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him . His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

They worshiped the one that's called Son of Man. And this is Jesus. So not only is the Ancient of Days worshiped, we see that there is someone else that's separate and distinct from the Ancient of Days, according to these two verses that is likewise worshiped . Therefore, there must be plurality in the Godhead. There has to be, because only the True and the Living God of the Bible can be worshiped . To worship anything or anyone else would be idolatry.

The scriptures are not ambiguous regarding Jesus being God. They are very clear. It is only when the WT introduces confusion about it and distorts it to say that Jesus and the Father are the same PERSON that problems come in. Besides a very small movement of Oneness Pentacostals, no one believes that Jesus and the Father are the same person.

So what about the Holy Spirit not being seen by Stephen? Why is this a problem? First of all, Stephen didn't see the Father either! Stephen saw the "glory" of the Father, and saw Jesus Christ at the right hand of the Father. There is no example of the Holy Spirit being seen in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is heard but not seen. But the Holy Spirit is constantly referred to as a person in the scriptures. John 14:26 says: "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remebrance all that I said to you."

This refers to the Holy Spirit as a PERSON. HE will teach all things. Even greater proof of the Holy Spirit being a person can be seen in Acts. Acts 8:29 says "And the Holy Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." Acts 10:19 says, "And while Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Holy Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you." Acts 11:12 says, "And the Holy Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. And these six brethren also went with me, and we entered the man's house. Acts 13:2 says. "And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

No, instead of the scriptures being ambiguous about who God is, the scriptures are very clear. The Holy Spirit is a person who speaks. He also is spoken of in the scriptrues as having a mind, emotions (loving and greiving), and a will. These are qualities that only belong to a person.

In conclusion, Daniel 7 is not avoided by "trinitarians". Sometimes that label is thrown around to try to lump people together in a negative light instead of focus on the evidence. Daniel 7 strongly affirms the Trinity. As I said in my previous post, JWs and exJWs at least need to learn what the Trinity actually is about before trying to disprove it. It does not say that Jesus and the Father have the same position. It does not say that Jesus head is not the Father. It also does not say that Jesus and the Father are the same person. It merely says that there is one true God, and God exists eternally in 3 distinct, untique persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Vanderhoven7

Thank you Ding and Christ Alone.

designs

'Daniel strongly affirms the Trinity' No, the Jews were not trinitarians, this is another in a long list of revisionisms started by the Gospels writers and Paul. Why was Jesus of Nazareth not the Messiah- he died, he lost his kingdom, he was not a 'son of man' if he claimed no human father, Y. In Judaism the Messiah, a human, gets the job done the first time out, no second coming.

Pterist

***EL-G... How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? (Heb. 5:8, 9)****

The perfecting was for humanity, He was IN FLESH !, it was done for YOU and ME, He is now the source and perfecter of our salvation, its the whole point of being a Christian and being santified in him to glory and immortality....read Hebrews 2:5-18.

Modalism has already been mentioned as being a misrepresentation of the isogesis understanding of the Trinity.

Shalom

Band on the Run

Now I have to google Modalism. Thanks for the info.

Satanus

El gaupo

So, instaed of dealing w all those questions, find out what the jw thinks the definition of the trinity is. Most likely it isn't correct, as the definition given in the make sure book is incorrect. Even though it is a partial quote, it omits some of the defintion and thus gets it wrong. Try to get through to the jw what is the real definition. Next, deal w john1:1. The wt purposely mistranslates it. If these basics cannot be grasped by the jw, i don't see any point in wasting an erg of energy or a nonosecond on those questions. Leave the donkey in the ditch. It likes it there.

S

If Jesus is god???!!!

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