Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled 73 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  nibbled

  Pterist this is meant to be provoking, but not sarcastic...

  "I have a new iPad to sell you."

  You get home, and then, see if you're happy after paying Apple retail price, plus tax, for that new iPad and you find out that it's "new" the way you describe "new".

  You'd be great in marketing, but you'd have to be careful, we have pretty strict laws in the United States which govern truth in advertising.

  Thoughts? Pretty please?

  Also, if my post doesn't make sense, let me know. [Imagine when you get home you pull it out of the box and you find fingerprints on the screen, a ding on the edge and someone else's email address already setup on it.]
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  EntirelyPossible

  You'd be great in marketing, but you'd have to be careful, we have pretty strict laws in the United States which govern truth in advertising.

  Oh?
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  cofty

  nibbled - thanks for your reply.

  You seem to be saying that gentile christians are children of Abraham and that there is "neither Jew nor Greek", but having just said that Paul then makes a distinction between the two in his salutation.

  You may be right, Paul does go out his way to be confusing at times, but I don't think its the natural reading of the context.

  Thus endeth today's sermon by atheist Cofty.
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  Pterist

  ***NEW* Imagine when you get home you pull it out of the box and you find fingerprints on the screen, a ding on the edge and someone else's email address already setup on it.*****

  I get your point of "nEw" lol ......let me indulge in a Imagine may I ?

  Imagine you get home and you look in the mirror and you are no longer male or female, no longer Jew or Greek, black or white, would this be NEW ?

  Shalom ;)
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  Pterist

  **** As for those that teach that Christians are the “Israel of God” on the basis of this one verse taken out of context, I recall the words of Paul:

  “I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.”********

  I believe Paul said this about legalist Judaizers that wanted the gentile Christians to be circumstances as a legal requirement to be part of the new Israel of God.

  Shalom
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  Pterist

  Correction, my NEW lol, iPad completes words for me, my iPad obviously does not like circumcision either as it completed CIRCUMSTANCES instead of circumcision as above in my last comment, sorry ;)

  The graphics of the tools used above are scary ;) don't even want to think about that !
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  Pterist

  It is interesting that the apostle Paul never mentions the word Christian, he was adament that he was involved in a New Creation and the New Israel of God, this is pretty clear in Romans cheaper 11 where we see the grafting INTO ISRAEL THE ORIGINAL VINE.
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  blondie

  The WTS says only the anointed are "spiritual Israelites" and connect that to Isaiah 43:10-12. They also connect this scripture, labeling all the members as "Jehovah's Witnesses" disregarding the spiritual Israelite connection. Based on their reasoning, the other sheep are not Jehovah's witnesses either. A careful reading of the use of that phrase starting in 1931 shows that only anointed were reference as "jws."

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/173519/1/The-Great-Crowd-are-NOT-Jehovah-Witnesses
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  Pterist

  From Yale university -

  What does that mean? Look at Romans 11:13:

  I'm speaking to you Gentiles, [so he turns directly to the Romans] in as much then as I am an Apostle of the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry in order to make my own people jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If a part of dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy. If the root is holy then the branches are also holy.

  Paul gives a theology here of the remnant. Some of the--a lot of the Jews have not accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, they seem to be cut off, they're like branches of an olive tree that are cut off. And the Gentiles, who are not natural branches of the olive tree, have been grafted in their place. That means that they're part of Israel now. Notice what this means.

  That you may not claim to be wiser than you are brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery. A hardening has come upon part of Israel [some of the Jews don't believe] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. [That's his job is trying to bring in the full number of the Gentiles.] And so all Israel will be saved.

  Wow, all Israel? Notice he doesn't explain how this happens, but in Romans 9-11 Paul presents this magnificent scenario that he believes was prophesied in Jewish scripture itself. That at the end of this cosmos, the end of this world, the Messiah would come, overthrow the oppressors of the Jews, set up Jerusalem as the center of the earth. And then all the Gentiles, all the nations, would come to the God of Israel, they would be grafted into the nation of Israel, they would worship the God of Israel. Paul's addition to this myth is simply that you don't need to keep the law in order to do this. All that Paul is saying about the law is secondary to his main point, which is, you're now part of Israel.

  Paul is not about starting a new religion. There's no "Christianity" in Paul. There are no "Christians" in Paul's letters. You can't find the word. You can't find the concept. There's no "Christianity" or "Christians" in Paul's world. He believed that he was the Apostle to the Gentiles to bring them into Israel to make the Gentiles part of Israel. Then, as he says right here, most wildly along he somehow believes, although he doesn't tell us how it's going to happen, that somehow God and God's miraculous mercy is going to figure out a way in the end to even bring all of Israel back in also. All Israel, he says, will be saved. Paul's not necessarily the first Christian theologian. He's one of the most radical Jewish theologians in the ancient world. Okay, we'll stop now and papers will be handed out. You all come up here to hand out the papers.

  http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-16#transcript
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  nibbled

  @cofty Let me see if I can clarify. I'm always working on clarity! I believe Paul's salutation spoke to the congregation; to him the congregation is neither Jew nor Greek. I studied Paul's letters and recall an inductive reasoning book I loved on it called "Apostle on the Edge". It did a great job of quickly summarizing what the culture of the time looked like. As we recall Israel was booted from the land long before Judah, many Israelites (10-tribes) were in the areas where Paul visited and became a part of the Christian congregation. There were also others in the community who were interested and joined the congregation. "Gentile" (goyim) as people of the nations is a designation meaning pretty much everyone under the sun, besides Jews (of the kingdom of Judah)—including Israelites (of the then former northern kingdom of Israel). I believe Paul was chastising the Jews in the congregation and the Christians who were falling for their schtick. Christians are a new creation—the body of Christ—and circumcision of the flesh is not a requirement of membership in the body. Flesh is the old covenant, spirit is the new covenant.

  All those in faith are children of Abraham. Even if we are blood and flesh descent, it's about faith and spirit to be his seed. For those who not blood and flesh we are adopted as a family adopts children from other nations today—picture Angelina Jolie and all her kids.

  Abraham was not part of Israel, nor was it his family name. He wasn't Jewish either. Therefore to some how leap from being Abraham's children (whether Jewish, Israelite or any other descent in the world) to being Jewish/Israelite is simply not possible. You'd skip generations. Abraham begat Isaac, also not a Jew or Israelite, Isaac begat Jacob, also not a Jew or Israelite, and then Jacob became a guy named Israel and had kids—his kids were Israelites… Later some of those kids, by culture, became Hellene, Scythian, barbarian, etc.

  I don't think Paul is confusing, I think that most people I've found ignore the context and just make it apply them instead.

  For fun (I know, terrible) I went through Paul's letters and cut it all up—clearly marking who he was speaking to, or when he referenced the prophets, what was the context of the prophets quotations used—who were they speaking to? How did that change? Between knowing the culture at that time and shaking my head out of "spiritual Jews" and "spiritual Israel" non-sense it made total sense. But I can't quite seem to figure out how to share that with others. Why can't we see the same thing? What am I missing?

  @Prerist Funny timing. I had just looked in the mirror before reading this and I was all red. But I'm not quite sure if I even know how to understand what the point is that you're seeking for me to understand. I'm sorry. I'll keep reading.

  Shalom with a wink. That's funny. Was it intended as your segue into your next post?—brilliant!

  Shalom— "Peace, even to the Israel of God".

  If I were writing the toddlers story time version of the scriptures I would translate this as, "treats for everyone, even the kids who creating all the ruckus today [and were in time out]!"

  The Israel of God comment concludes his argumentation against the Legalist Judaizers that wanted the Christians to get circumcised.

  I was just wondering, I don't know offhand—when was this letter written as compared to when King Agrippa designated us Christians? Was it even a word yet? I have to go look at home. Christian isn't used in the book of Galatians at all. Amplified version uses it in it's "amplification". I hadn't gone to read their rendering of this letter. Wonder what their amplification implies as to their theology?

  http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=christian&version1=AMP&searchtype=all&spanbegin=55&spanend=55&resultspp=500

  Regarding the Grafting, I'll find what I wrote about that and post. I hope you'll stay around to respond!

  Hi @Blondie! I'll have to add that to my to read list. I'm pretty sure that there's a very very short list of things that I believe that are on a WT list. I find it irksome to try to think about it as it just reminds me of how far I feel from my family and love. :)