by nibbled 73 Replies latest watchtower bible
**** so you "spiritualize" the restoration too? ***
The scriptures SPIRITUALIZED the above events/promises I mentioned in my comment !
Restoration ? Can you be more specific ?
Shalom
By the way, im NOT pushing my understanding as right or wrong ! No selling going on here, not interested in buying into another cult or denomination either. I'm free living by the Spirit to fellowship anywhere I'm led.!
Shalom again ;)
@Pterist You're good with me! I can feel that you're discussing with me, as I hope you view my intent as well. I want to learn all I can, but come from a personal understanding of scripture now singularly my own through spirit and scripture, not biased to any religion or denomination (though raised WT). I also have a desire to share what I learn with others who are 'seekers' as I do believe there is one Truth. So, we're all good!
On the other hand, I seem to have a little more difficulty understanding your posts...
The scriptures SPIRITUALIZED the above events/promises
My intent in the discussion is to express that there is no "spiritualization" that I have found in the scriptures. There is a revealed "new creation", but that doesn't change what was inspired and said in the word of God in the old covenant, "spiritualizing Israel" or "spiritualizing" anything else.
By restoration, I mean that while Paul's explanations seem to be interpreted by Christians of modern history without any awareness of the cultural understanding—meaning today they believe something, I believe, entirely different than the first congregation, about what Paul was telling them/us.
I've been trying to figure out how to paint the story of the culture in which those congregations lived, their understanding of Paul's letters.
The reason is that simply, until I can find people who accept that Paul was not turning Christians into "spirtual Israel" or "spiritual Jews" but was explaining to them that both fleshly and spiritual former Israelites, and fleshly and spiritual Jews, AND anyone else of any descent were all a "new creation" in Christ, and part of the NEW covenant.
THEN ... if that foundation is understood,...
The Restoration prophecies can be discussed with a shared foundation (or at least premise). For instance, Israel was promised restoration to it's name and identity (Hosea) though having been taken captive out of their land (Samaria of ten-tribe northern Israel).
Some people have tried to persuade me to believe that it's all happened already. There are numerous points that they have not—for instance, the lion, bears, snakes and children, if nothing else, we know hasn't happened.
In any case, for me, the point is still trying to find people who either get Paul's teaching the way I do, so we can evaluate together the whole—Paul, and how what happens after the "full number of the nations come in" with the old covenant people.
To be clear, because I struggle being clear so people can understand what I mean: I believe that Israel and Judah will return to the land, just like Hosea and Jeremiah, and most all the other prophets prophesied. Even now where we now have post-1948 Israel, we still only have "Judah" accounted for, at best. Besides that, I don't believe 1948 is the restoration of Judah, but is another event mentioned by scripture (basically Judah would preceed Israel and there's stuff that goes down, and then there is the restoration which is both plus people of the nations; but this is also AFTER the new covenant folks have been POOF! be goned!)
I can explain it, right now looking for folks who are either curious and thinkers, believe simliar, or want to go along for the ride possibly to contribute.
I'll ask if any reading this are interested, let me know. I'm not going to try that discussion on this board, and am testing out new means of communication and information sharing. Basically gathering folks, as if it were a "project" and then we'll discuss.
I'm looking forward to it! Exciting to get to meet people virtually!
Pterist, did that make any sense? I don't understand your point yet, about the scriptures spiritualized the events, but maybe you're talking about Paul's letters of Romans and Galatians?
Nibbled:
"While the original Greek clears up the correct rendering . . . "
I was wondering if you could explain your view on this statement. (I take it you mean cleared up regarding the issue of whether Gal 6:16 is referring to one or two entities.)
Are you saying the Greek of Gal 6:16 clears this up? If so, in what way? (Asking to understand , not so much to challange.)
BobCat hi there.
Check out this link which takes you to the Interlinear. Note in the Greek the punctuation inserted. This reads clearly as "peace and mercy to you guys who listen to my instructions; [Paul heaves a sigh] and even to the Israel of God who made me have to write this letter in the first place."
dramatized of course but trying to share the imagery; the dramatization isn't my persuasion simply trying to add help in mindset.
The versions which render it "even to the Israel of God" make the point, then you'll note others completely render it as "the true church who are the real Israel". Ah, the violence done! Click the parallel tab to see all the variations in rendering.
http://interlinearbible.org/galatians/6-16.htm
your thoughts?
oh context shows Paul's mentality. "I wish they'd castrate themselves" — gotta love that guy!
First, I appreciate you bringing up the subject. It is causing me to do more research on it.
At any rate, as you've noticed, the difference in the renderings has to do with the particle (kai) that begins the last phrase (". . . and/even upon the Israel of God")
Kai has a somewhat broader range of meaning than english "and." It often times is simply a conjunction ("and" or "also"). Sometimes, though, it is explanatory or epexegetical ("even," "that is to say," or "to wit"). And there are other nuances that it can take. If you have Vine's Expository Dictionary, he has a nice writeup on kai in his appendix.
It's not always easy to decipher which way the writer is intending. This is why some translations view the last phrase (about the Israel of God) as explanatory of the first phrase (those who follow this rule of conduct). Others take the view that two distinct groups are being referred to. Often the support for the various arguments have to come from other scripture references.
Some take the repitition of epi ("upon") in both phrases as an indicator that Paul meant two seperate groups. I think some take the fact that "peace and mercy" are only mentioned in the first phrase as an indicator that the second phrase (the Israel of God) is simply a qualifying identifier for the first group and thus, there was no need to repeat the 'peace and mercy' phrase a second time.
But like I said, the fact that you brought up the subject has prompted more research on my part. So I appreciate that. I was taking the last phrase as a qualifier of the first. But now I want to dig a little deeper to see what I might find on it.
Take Care
*** The scriptures SPIRITUALIZED the above events/promises***
You are correct, poorly written, sorry
All Gods promises of land and prosperity >>>>>>> ALL "YES" in Christ as SPIRITUAL blessings ...ie the hidden tressure, the pearl of great price.
who is the "Jew" him on the outside circumcision in FLESH >>>>>or on the INSIDE whose heart is circumcised >>>> Spiritual
The killing of the flesh, dying in Christ>>>>>>> living in the spirit, Spiritul life in Christ
the FADING glory of the ministery of the LAW on STONE >>>>compared to the MORE GLORIOUS ministery of the SPIRIT ..written on hearts ..Spiritual
Abraham and others did NOT have fulfillment in their time! Abraham did not get one inch of land >>>>but LOOKED FORWARD to better PROMISES ! The Jerusalem ABOVE, The ZION of GOD....all seem like Spiritual blessings to me !
Shalom
By the way, you never answered my question, what do you mean my restoration ?? and share your understanding.,!! Do you mean Israel, Jerusalem, the temple restored, renewal of ANIMAL SACRIFICES ??.?
Sorry seen your post on restoration, let me read it ;)
Yes, your description of restoration is one of the many views of eschatology and the various millennium types, Post, Pre, Amillenniumism, and dispensionalism ! All have good arguments, and None are without issues.
Observation, In your search for TRUTh,, you seem to be looking for a list of of topics that have to be CORRECT like the JWs.
We know wisdom, grace and TRUTH is not just Information and knowledge about Our messiah but IS IN the Messiah. I Am, the Way, TRUTH and Life....If I am IN THE Messiah and "He" in Me, I have the ALL TRUTh, but not in a worldy fleshly achedemic way but in attitude and divine attributes, that must have their way in me, More of Him and less of me ! Is not this the goal to be FULLY mature in Christ, a New Creation in him, we will be like the Adam from heaven in every way, no male or female, no Jew or Greek, but a mortal seed planted in death in HIM and raised in HIM to whatever glorious spiritual body he desires to give us, so mortality is swallowed up by immortality. This earthly TENT is changed to a MANSION ??
Shalom sister !
@Bobcat Oh thank you! That makes me happy to hear! It's lonely to be treking without anyone to consider your steps or to walk with you! The first "non JW" thing I did was order a book called "Apostle on the Edge". That was where I learned I had actually known through visiting the antiquity much of the culture which surrounds these letters. Eating the Jewish ghetto of Rome under the shadow of the arch of Janus, for instance.
The book does a great job of summing it up layman, and just letting you think for yourself style. I don't actually recall it supporting or negating my thought (which came later) on this. I just recall that it was freeing. (I had ordered it because I was interested in the disctinction between OT-John, plus Hebrew letters & Revelation, vs. Paul's letters.) And that it did a good job of making me feel like I'd actually been smart to history before I read it. (If you know me, I live it more than learn it, and only then come to learn it and realize I 'know' something.)
So basically, more than getting stuck on that one verse, I ended up backing out to a higher elevation view again. I said, okay, think about it. You know Paul. What does he mean here? Who is he talking to? Taking in the context, and the context switching (between the two distinct audiences or readers of his letter; and knowing that his letters circulated, so as we take in all his letters today they would too...) even sticking that one letter, he's telling them quite simply—you're not becoming one of them, they need to become apart of the NEW. Thus, back to that verse. If he HAD meant as most take it, that they "the true Church" or the Christians were the "[true] Israel of God"—would he have just wasted his breath in all his other arugment in the letter?
It's complicated, but I went through (in my 'free' time: sort of ditched the rest of life. tired of being hit on; they can't handle my spirituality, why bother thinking they can handle my body? ugh. j/k it's a circular thing, point is happily lonely) and essentially starting cutting it up. test each verse's understanding in the original context (when he'd quote somebody; what was the guy he was quoting talking about, and directed to whom? and how did they at that time understand it to me) and then modern (Paul's letter's day) context in the first century. As best as I can tell, there's no reason for us to believe different than the first century congregation, we just happen to understand differently. but our understanding is not well founded. what's changed?
can't wait to hear what you come across. if you're a book buyer, buy the book, but honestly i didn't finish it. i got probably halfway through and then was too engrossed in the scriptures. sounds like your brain already is freed from the scullcap. :)
This earthly TENT is changed to a MANSION ??
Sometimes I just feel like a naïve child. Actually I guess that doesn't quite express it, but is also true.
I've heard "exgensis" and other words you mentioned before, but they're not in my vocabulary yet.
If you can take me at my word, I'm just a kid who read the word and believed it was the Word and then believed to deny it was truth was to deny the Truth which was to deny the Christ. If you follow that and follow the capital and lower case letters (thank you for our language conventions for clarity!) I meant it as written. The key is figurative, literal, symbolic, and spiritual (not necessarily in that order).
I realized everyone spends so much time arguing about John 1:1 as the trinity and misses it's point. My Greek (former) roommate whose mother was a Trojan, and boy they were every bit of Greek as I never would have welcomed into my home had I known! (j/k, sort of) pointed out that Americans (he meant broader than that I'm sure) just don't know how the Greeks understand the verse. It reads as written without "a god" but they know what it means.
Meanwhile, we miss the point. The word was with God, and the word was God and the Word of God became flesh and lived among us. Now he's spirit... but where is he—in us.
I can't — I'm sorry. I have turned into an absolute child. I lost my daddy when I was three and spent my child hood acting as an adult. At 33 I've died to the world and am not going back. I'm a child. You can't take the Truth from me, and I believe every word he says.
Joyous tantrum aside, I'm expressing joy to you! I don't have a clue, my darling PT, what you're talking about. I know I've read all those keywords before, but since they aren't in the things I study (the books of scripture) I'm pretty much an idiot to what they mean... Should I go bother? (I ask sincerely.)
I'm not sure I want to be able to label things. I know what they mean. People just stopped respecting the word as truth. That the Word is Truth. They change it, say it means something different.
If I get confused now about a verse, I pop over to the interlinear immediately (online reading always though I now own a dozen translations) and you know what? It usually clears it up. Some guy usually change the word. Generally that's changing something regarding identity.
Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, where there can’t be Hellene * and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian ?† , Scythian ‡ , bondservant, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:10,11
That verse above is from obible.org, my personal study bible. Yes, I mean mine. It's VERY much a work in progress. It's ASV/WEB because it was public domain, and then my word for word work as I research and hit areas. And I've just started recently. So the verses above are my research. I wondered what a Scythian was. I felt like it was vaguely familiar. I learned who they were, and also realized it was familiar because there's a king of the Scythian's in my (absolutely must be believe mythological!) family tree. But the point that I found funny and was only happy to have learned after I already had the foundation under my belt of Israel vs. Judah, and Israel as dispersed people that were never accounted for in the scriptures that I could tell... was that there they were! Hellene is a Jew (or person) who has adopted the Greek language, customs or culture, despite their roots (Greek Jew, Jewish Greek?), well, and suffice to say, that the whole list he gives could be simply just speaking to various people who were formerly of Israel as a once united, now nearly entirely dispersed nation. (I always have to be clear, even so, we're still a part of the new covenant, as all nations qualify; just interesting that his list shows that there were Ephraim and Judah still to that day fighting against each other like brothers. (That is a verse much earlier in scripture which I didn't know where it applied until here...)
You said something about seeming to look for a list of topics to be correct—not sure what you mean, but no.
Right now I'm looking for friends. I want to talk about the scriptures, but not here on this forum. I want to really talk about them. To me it's a book—Genesis to Revelation. I agree with Band on the Run, it really can't be taken as a verse or chapter out of context (which he eluded to, though don't know if he means he same as I).
As a wild eyed, full of wonder child, I'm begging new friends to come play with me!
I have a story to tell. I just read this amazing book, and its the most amazing story that I've ever read. And I believe it!
I felt sure, as a naïve child, that the only reason I didn't know anyone who'd ever talked about it before was because after leaving the WT I never talked to anyone about spiritual matters, and this is new to me anyway. But I talked to them first, and no, they don't know.
I have an elder friend and his wife who are really cool. He owns a copy of the DDD (Dictionary of Demons and Deities). I tried to explain to him, I put together this: http://www.obible.org/tbb/thousandyears.htm
I read the whole book, but it was a movie. But it was a movie where the scenes go back in forth in time. What you read isn't necessarily in chronological order—no, duh! you say—but I saw it all. It was a movie and I followed the plot along. There was a lot of foreshadowing and then here's what's going to happen.
Most the books of the prophets get cut off in the middle. Most meaning the major. I haven't sat down to call them out yet. I'm looking to find friends to study with. I have the whole story, but I haven't gone down to figure out the books. I just remember it all and then do the keyword search to pull back the book.
For instance, there's a verse about the women who say to the man, Let us take your name, we'll make our own clothes and food. Then it's followed with a scene of the women of Jerusalem having been purified and God erecting a tent (chuppah! it actually says chuppah! like a Jewish wedding!) over mount zion — and i thought— well I remember that scene. That's Rev. 14:1. You'll have to do a search on bible.cc for it, I think it's Isaiah maybe? It's a short chapter.
Anyway, the story puts the prophets on hold. You might as well cut off anything written about israel after it's kicked out and put them asides as God's love letters with no mailing address. The Jews get hardened, so the prophecies about them end or conclude with Jeremiah's book. From there everything is on hold until Christ comes, but that's sort of in this middle movie of the trilogy where he comes but everyone who saw the first movie knows how it's going to go—they're going to reject him, and a remnant will believe. Then there's Paul and his ministry to the nations (which includes dispersed Israel; Jews always were mean to Israel for having been apostates; irony). His movie is a mystery style, where you learn that all the blessings the Jews thought were theirs (He's our God!) were just theirs. Only the Jews didn't get the punchline. The Christians got it, and the remnant of the Jews and Israel who believed also got in on the new covenant, body of Christ, one hope, heavenly reward—anointed.
So then (I don't know which movie we're on, 4?) the full number come in. Noticing how people act around here, and how I can't even find ONE friend in SF to talk to who believes in God, it seems there isn't anyone left to believe... er, come in— anyway when the full number comes in, then it's all time for the major events we've been building to. It's where it all comes together in crashing symbols and trumpets of a symphony performance.
One minute they're there—next it's two to a family, one from a field. (Oh, forgot there's the whole everyone in churches following that white guy on the white horse who conquers all the good hearted ones who think they're following Christ. That one kills me. It makes me feel helpless.) SO sorry, I skipped ahead. White guy on white horse conquers all the good hearts but followers, they are safely in churches. People who are bold and think they "know" are noticing that the Obama administration was called out by the crazy guy for "war on religion" while the same CNN report scrolls that Biden is headed to Israel first, then Egypt. (And some have taken the time to make this chart, because they're not good at remembering what's what.) So they think maybe Daniel's treaty of 7 years is about to be made. And about three and a half years in when they call true Nobel Peace and security...
Well, anyway, I'm getting off track and I've gotten a bit cheeky with no intent to offend my friends here. Basically about a year ago I seemed to recognize this convergence of world events and bible prophecy. I am dying to talk to people about it. I'm not a news person, know little about politics, and all I know is that it's going down.
So there's a treaty, 3.5 years of peace for the first half. Then there's 3.5 years of chaos. Its the final go round of God reminding his chosen that they aren't to rely on anyone but him. Apparently besides the devastation and rape, there will also be the temple on the mount. These things sound so absurd. Unless you have Jewish friends and know that there's a prefab (I imagine to Ezekiel's specs) temple ready for the moment that they can go pop it up. There's also a press release out there from the We Do Jewish Stuff for Antiquities and Stuff group who said they have all the utensils ready too. Meanwhile you've got Rabbi whoever who died in 2005 naming Yeshua (using YHWH Yehowah) as the Messiah. Took me a longer moment than you to realize why that was signifigant. Oh year, totally forgot. They don't believe in Jesus (as having been the Messiah). So he dies and his note is read and his son says that dad says that the Messiah said that he'd come after the Prime Minister dies. (If I recall right.) Now, I don't go around believing that people get visions and hear voices unless they are either crazy or possessed... but I have to admit at the same time I come across that is when I had Joel 2 on the mind which was said by Acts to have been fulfilled at the end of the Jewish system, only obviously not entirely since the book speaks to the last Last days. I've also long wondered, anyone out there believe that there is going to be an end to the Christian system, and that's what parallels the end of the Jewish system?
So poof, after 3.5 years of chaos and ravaging apparently Christ appears (I say apparently, don't have the timing worked here, again, looking for people who want to have fun; people who enjoy the scriptures and find them fascinating and alive!) and poof! be gone are the anointed, I mean the Christs body, I mean the Christians (oh those synonyms) thus THE END of the new covenant.
And the beginning of movie 5. The picking up of the old covenant, the restoration, Armageddon. Again need help with order. I can't tell when the travel back to the land is—before or after Armageddon? The key is in the references to the "walled" and "unwalled" city, I think.
The millenium, the end.
I'm tired. Must go sleep. I love dreaming.
Apologies for the rant. I got a sad phone call from my mother. Was nice to hear her voice, at least.
Thanks for listening guys. Its a jumbled mess above. I'd rather hit send and see who sticks around despite rather than to try to craft something which takes much longer. It's nicer to find out who's with you, and work together! :)
With love,
Nibbled the Word
