Doing as you suggest without doing it His way, He would not get to flood the earth, bet with Satan on Job, mess with Pharaoh, etc. He never would have had as much fun. He wouldn't even have introduced Jesus to the Jews. So much fire and brimstone would have been missing from His plan.
A conversation about universal sovereignty
by outsmartthesystem 37 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Ding
"Well OSTS, Satan, through Adam challenged God's right to rule......so God had to let it play out to show that He really SHOULD be the one ruling mankind. Both the angels and humans needed to see this."
JWs believe this because the WTS teaches it, but nowhere does the Bible say that God had to prove his right to rule to human beings and/or angels.
The Bible describes God as the ultimate judge, not as the accused with creatures as the judges.
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FingersCrossed
LOL!!
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Aussie Oz
The more i looked at the universe, the BIGGER it got!
the bigger it got, the more i realized that the fate of the WHOLE Universe resting on the events on this planet, so small that it becomes invisible in the cosmos, was just utter cave man thinking that the sun moon and earth were all there was in the universe.
The bible stayed stuck in time while science evolved
This was truly a case of science doing its job
Oz
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zeb
At a convention an elder spoke loudly that 'universal sovereignty' was the issue of the age.
I remember thinking "says who?" There were the usual countries starving, crime was on the up, home mortgage rates were on the up as here in Australia they can be changed on you after you have signed.
apart from the limbless lame and blind.. nope 'us' is the issue. I didnt know it then but perhaps they had been hit with a law suit? No www in those days
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Phizzy
There are far more important issues than Universal Sovreignty, there are Football Leagues to be won or lost for instance, "more important than life and death" as one English Football manager put it.
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Larsinger58
How about this BIG PICTURE?
All the pain and suffeering for 6000 years was so that those born could have a chance to have eternal life later on Judgment Day. The choice was never to be born or be born, suffer a little during one's imperfect life, then have the chance for eternal life after Judgment Day when those relatively few years from the first life would soon be forgotten.
On the spiritual side of the scale, Satan would get the death penalty for being the murderous angel that he is. Had there been no opportunity for sin to occur, Satan would still be alive disturbing the peace of all the angels in heaven.
God gave Satan an opportunity for a way out of his miserable existence under God's sovereignty, which he willingly took with the satisfaction of killing billions of potential humans. Only God turned the tables on him with the ransom sacrifice and the resurrection. But that was expensive and part of that expense is the temporary suffering of mankind being born in an imperfect world and in an imperfect state.
But in the ultimate end, the righteous whom Satan murdered when he caused Adam to sin will have a second chance. That's worth the pain and suffering and the high price of Christ's death as far as God is concerned. The life of righteous humans was something that valuable. Satan's rebellion thus is most marginalized in this manner.
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alecholmesthedetective
Hmm, Jesus was born perfect out of an imperfect woman, so Jehovah did know how to fix it!
I was reading some scriptures about children paying for the sins of their parents and alas, was bit confused...
You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me.—Exodus 20.5
6 And Jehovah went passing by before his face and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, 7 preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.”—Exodus 34.6, 7
Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each one should be put to death for his own sin.—Deuteronomy 24.16
The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.—Ezekiel 18.20
Anyway, Tater-T I have to agree with you. What was it that Jesus said again? "That one was a manslayer when he began." (John 8.44) So, the WT always taught us this means that Satan is responsible for all the deaths in the world. So Adam and Eve died 'in the same day' in God's eyes but Satan and those who later became his demons are still alive and kicking making the world a bloody mess. Hmm, curious.
Are Satan and the demons imperfect because they've sinned? That always subconsciously bothered me, how angels could sin and get away with it for thousands of years. Oh, they're not immortal, I get it, they can be destroyed by God. But they continue being superhuman adversaries of God's people out to test their loyalty to God? 6000 years of experience catching humans, beginning with successfully misleading the first two perfect humans in history plus having higher mental capacity and superpowers? That's an unfair advantage, God!
Oh, let's give Jehovah a break, since his standards of justice kidnapped mankind from him when Adam sinned. So to save mankind (he needed believers on earth too after he spent all that time getting it ready for man) God lets his own son come to earth and offer himself as a human sacrifice to pay the price of the ransom to God even though he wasn't the kidnapper!
Meanwhile he lets a psychopathic killer—Satan—and his accomplices on the loose killing billions of people to prove why he should arrest them thousands of years in the future, for a thousand years, to them let loose again so they mislead a lot of the people alive so that he can only then put an end to all this killing once and for all by finally executing Satan, his demons, and all those they successfully mislead.
All this, of course, will settle once and for all why we should all subject ourselves to him and give up our free will to him, because if we don't do as he says and are not thankful for the expensive price he payed to save us in the first place, he'll have to kill us!
I mean, I don't think personally I would support a government policy of letting psychopaths/serial killers for thousands of years on the loose to prove why the best course is having the government/police maintaining order in the first place.
In my book, Jehovah seems disturbingly similar to Palpatine/Hitler/Caesar in creating a war so he could claim his right to stay in power.
And I have to agree with Phizzy, Jehovah had better not bring Armageddon before the end of the decade because I have a lot in my bucket list, I'm waiting for the next Star Wars movies just to see how they will turn out, the 3rd series of the BBC Sherlock, the final episodes of Series 7 of Doctor Who, the next Hobbit films, and the fall of the WT (now THAT is an important issue).
Alec
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Tater-T
@ lars .. or maybe this
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alecholmesthedetective
LOL Tater-T
Alec
