thanks Alec.. and I enjoyed your other commments too..
A conversation about universal sovereignty
by outsmartthesystem 37 Replies latest watchtower bible
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alecholmesthedetective
You're welcome! Thanks!
:)
Alec
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Tater-T
universal sovereign; gives TEN COMANDMENTS.. which include thou shall not covet, kill or steal
universal sovereign; then tell same people he gave them to, to covet their neighbors land, (it is flowing with milk and honey for goodness sakes) KILL everyone in it .. and steal IT
It's not like they were written in STONE.. LOL
Oh and Ransom had to be paid because he can't break his own LAWS...
I like this thread..
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alecholmesthedetective
LOL perfect Tater-T.
Alec
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yadda yadda 2
You'd think that as soon as Adam and Eve got really old and died, that would have settled it. Clearly, at the point the Devil was proved a liar, 5,000 years ago. So why drag the issue on for thousands more years?
In any event, the Watchtower basically admits that the issues raised in the book of Job was settled by the death of Christ. Check it out in the Insight volumes.
Oh yeah, I forgot...the evidence has to build up and man has to experiment with every possible form of self-rule before there is enough evidence for God to finally intervene and save humanity. In that case, Armageddon isn't coming any time soon since there are numerous forms of government man hasn't tried yet, the obvious one being a global one-world government (which God thwarted in Nimrod's time)? Or how about governments where all decisions are made strictly by national referendum? How about a government where decisions are made purely on computerised scientific data that calculates how resources should be allocated to eliminate the greatest suffering? Or since it's men who have mostly been the rulers and started all the wars, etc, how about women only governments? If you use your imagination you can think of numerous types of human government mankind hasn't tried yet.
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yadda yadda 2
The issue of universal sovereignty, if true, is still no explanation for why God must be so totally hidden. We would expect at least for a God of love to have set some limits on the amount of horrific suffering that could occur. All God needed to do is hardwire into our genes some sort of physical punishment for causing terrible suffering to others. You commit evil, and some DNA get activated where your physical health deteriorates commensurate to the evil committed. No messing with natural laws and constant intervention needed. In fact, this is basically what Christianity teaches, that we get old and die because our genetic 'mold' get damaged and this genetic defect was passed on to our children. JW's teach that by rebelling against God and drawing away from his rule, we lost 'perfection' and started to wind down like a fan pulled from the electric socket. If the Bible teaches there is a link to original sin and our genetic make-up, and sin and death, then why could God not build into our genes a similar system of natural physical punishment for the commission of evil? Jesus also made a connection between physical disease and sin when he healed people.
Satan and any other rebels could not complain that such an arrangement would be intefering in man's moral free will, since God himself has told humankind numerous times what sins should not be committed. Right from the start he gave moral laws, warning Cain not to murder, etc, and he gave the 10 commandments. So God could easily have established some kind of universal punishment karma for persons who break his laws without the issue of universal sovereignty being undermined. Instead, God gave these moral laws (that reasonably limit our free will) and then did nothing to prevent or punish anyone from breaking them, just disappeared off the scene. It's inexplicable.
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Tater-T
great explanation Yadda......
and are these governments even mans? satan offered them to christ how could he if they weren't his?
is your avatar a ground hog with a rocket launcher?
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Apognophos
Satan and any other rebels could not complain that such an arrangement would be intefering in man's moral free will, since God himself has told humankind numerous times what sins should not be committed. Right from the start he gave moral laws, warning Cain not to murder, etc, and he gave the 10 commandments. So God could easily have established some kind of universal punishment karma for persons who break his laws without the issue of universal sovereignty being undermined. Instead, God gave these moral laws (that reasonably limit our free will) and then did nothing to prevent or punish anyone from breaking them, just disappeared off the scene. It's inexplicable.
What about this is inexplicable? You explained it perfectly. God could not punish people for sinning because that's not giving them free moral will. Free moral will comes when a person can make any decision for himself, without there being unavoidable consequences for a wrong act.
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outsmartthesystem
And here's another good one. "Mankind had been slipping further and further away from perfection with each and every generation that passes". This is a common belief amongst JWs, no? With that thought process.......why did Cain kill Abel? I mean.....he was one generation removed from perfection. Shouldn't his worst sin be something like keeping an extra watermelon for himself instead of sharing it with his brother?
And if the second generation is capable of murder......and each generation is getting progressively worse......then shouldn't this generation be using the hearts of babies, puppies and kittens as the latest form of renewal energy? Or shouldn't we be cloning children now for the sole purpose of producing genuine leather coats?
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nowwhat?
this issue has always bugged me. if the issue is man rule or god's right to rule, should'nt it have been an even playing field? meaning both Jehovah and satan coould not interfere with the progress of humanity. of course man rule has been mostly been a disaster with satan pulling the striings. would'nt the world have been a much better place without evil influence? so the deck is stacked in Jehovah's favor. and another thing it was an angel that commited the first sin, s o why does'nt Jehovah test the angels integrity, its up to us puny humans to be the pawns. the issue of sovereignty cannot be resolved satan- 99.9% of the world. Jehovah- .09 % SCOREBOARD SATAN
DISCLAMER- as a puny human we do'nt have the right to judge the creator just questioning the theory of universal sovereignty as told by the watchtower