A conversation about universal sovereignty

by outsmartthesystem 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Apognophos

  Good points, nowwhat. And not only did the Devil rebel, but "a third of the stars", although I don't know when that was supposed to have happened (maybe not until the pre-Flood era?). Yet the rest of the angels get to stay in heaven in perfect conditions, whereas we get kicked out of Eden simply because we're related to two other humans who sinned. Also, why do humans need to be imperfect in order to prove they are willing to worship God, when Adam and Eve sinned while they were perfect? Not only do we have to labor under the lack of the the perfect self-control they (supposedly) had, but on top of that, as you pointed out, we have to live in a world 'lying under the power of the wicked one'.

  It seems pretty clear to me that the original accounts of the Garden of Eden and Job were merely attempts to explain human suffering, in terms that sound simplistic to us today: (1) our parents did something wrong (the same reason why they used to believe someone would be born blind -- because his parents sinned), and (2) the Devil is testing us. I don't even think this business about people being "perfect" and "imperfect" has any basis in scripture; it was just supposition by later religious thinkers, predicated on the assumption that God wouldn't create anything imperfect.

  If you look back at the earliest (Yahwist) accounts in the Bible, though, they're from a simpler time. Those thinkers saw no reason why man should be perfect because even God was just a very powerful man to them. He formed Adam out of clay like a potter, blew life into the man's nostrils with His breath, and then made Eve from one of his ribs. When A&E sinned, YHWH noticed they were missing on one of his daily strolls through his creation, and had to ask where they were. He then kicked them out of Eden so they couldn't keep eating from the tree of life and prolonging their lives beyond those of the animals. The End.

  Only later did Jewish and Christian thinkers introduce the idea of God being the "absolute", the Alpha and the Omega, with perfect justice, wisdom, power, etc. This is where theodicy comes into the picture; there's no "problem of evil" that needs explanation in the earlier worldview because nothing was perfect from the start, and YHWH was just one god-man of many. It's only when we start insisting on attributing absolute perfection to God that you run into thorny issues like "How does perfect love interact with perfect justice without lessening it? How can God allow evildoers to harm good people in the name of justice without overriding his perfect love? Why does a perfectly loving God require us to serve him, or else die? How can God know the future and yet we still have free will?" Etc., etc., etc.
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  smiddy

  Great thread
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  mP

  Where does it say Adam and Eve were decieved by the Devil or any angle. It quite clearly says a snake, nothing more nothing less. If it was Satan it should have said so but it doesnt.

  Now the question is why do you believe a book that claims snakes talk ?
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  mP

  universal sovereign; gives TEN COMANDMENTS.. which include thou shall not covet, kill or steal

  mP: He didnt give 10 commandments in total he gave 613.
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  mP

  You'd think that as soon as Adam and Eve got really old and died, that would have settled it. Clearly, at the point the Devil was proved a liar, 5,000 years ago.

  mP: Adam and Eve are not *REAL* people. Look at their names, Adam = man, Eve = mother, its allegorical.
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  Comatose

  On top of all that's been said. God hasn't really let people try to rule themselves or played fair according to the bible. First he lets angels come down here to mess things up for us humans. How could that be fair if we are trying to do it ourselves. Then he kills everyone but a guy who sees it his way and starts over with a flood. Then when humans are again off to a start makes them not able to communicate and scatters them across the earth. All to prove we can't do it ourselves. Does that sound fair?
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  Jeffro

  "Well OSTS.....you see......Adam's children weren't born until AFTER Adam had sinned.....therefore sin was inherited and it spread to all future generations."

  Me: Yahuh... Idiot.
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  transhuman68

  I was looking through a book about the Old Testament by Etienne Charpentier , and found this:

  The serpent. This creature played a prominent role in mythology. In Egypt the serpent opposed the sun god during the night, trying to prevent him from rising. In Canaan, it was a sexual symbol in certain cults. According to the Gilgamesh epic, it was the serpent which stole the herb of life (see below).

  The Gilgamesh epic
  Haunted by the idea of death, Gilgamesh leaves in search of immortality. The hero of the flood reveals to him the existence of a herb of life. Gilgamesh succeeds in plucking it from the abyss and wants to take it to his city. He goes for two days and then stops.
  Gilgamesh saw a well whose water was cool. He went down into it to bathe in the water. A serpent snuffed the fragrance of the plant. Silently it came up from the earth and carried off the plant; immediately it shed its old skin.
  Thereupon Gilgamesh sat down and wept, his tears running down over his face.

  All this could have influenced the choice of the serpent. However, the essential concern of the text is to show that sin does not come from within man, that it is not part of his nature: it comes from outside. Thus man is responsible for his actions.

  All of these myths predate the Bible, and probably contributed to the Creation story in Genesis. Maybe it was an issue of universal sovereignty for the Egyptian sun god?