Whats the truth about 1914?

by Leander 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Jerome,

    Wow that is an excellent summary of the "state of affairs" of the Watchtower Society, circa 1918. Not bad for a troll, ex-troll, or whatever you were supposed to be. (Just kidding...)

    Yes, the facts make you wonder how "different" or "set apart" the International Bible Students (as JW's were then known) were from the other religions. Yes, they were opposed and persecuted -- they were set apart because their anti-establishment message was quite harsh. But were they set apart in a way that God could have approved? The facts seem to say otherwise.

    Thanks for a thought-provoking entry.

    -J.R., member, UADNA-MN
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Minnesota division)

    This post was not evaluated by any mental health professionals.
    Any opinions expressed are those of a fuzzy, cuddly rodent.

  • jerome
    jerome

    The Watchtower has lied to its members about the actuall method that was used to calculate the date of the presence of Christ.
    The consequences of changing this book would be diseasterous. As the authority that was claimed by the WBTS would be made invalid. The lives lost and the suffering caused by this organisation would then be put to blame on the persons who implemented them in the first place. In actuallity all tha happened was that the dates of the end of the Gentile times and the invisible return of Christ the End of the World in 1918 were readjusted.

    The presence of Christ now became 1914.
    Instead od the gentile times ending in 1799 it was also moved to the 1914 date.
    In stead of the world ending in 1918 it was reajdusted to reaffirm the authority of the WBTS by stating that Christ judged all of Christendom and rejected them as apostate and gave all the authority of the WBTS.

    Now when a JW hears these dates he has no idea of what the orignal meaning of these dates were. The Watchtower apparently has made an effort to change alot of the figures and dated published in these older publications when they reach bound volumes and are reprinted. So when a curious JW decides to lookinto it for him self he only variefies that the apostates have ben lying all along and the Watchtower never published such a thing. Not only that it has encouraged its members not to read many of the older volumes because they are "old light."

    Anyone who finds out about these discrepencies is shure to be siclenced.

    So when a JW tries to downplay the significance of their faulty chronology they are justifying the deception that has gone into the continuation of this lie, including the methods used to make shure that it does not become public knowledge that they are wrong, the significance to the authority of the Governing body and the fact that they are the Chosen people of God.

    If a JWs looks you square in the eye and telles you that 1914 is not their most important date they are not being honest. Nothing can be further from the truth.

    Reguarding the presence of Christ signifiying the end of the Gentile Times:

    The so called signs of the last days would then dissapear as nothing more than a figment of the imagination much as in the case of the strory of The Emperors New Clothes. People can sense the time of the end only because they are told what to look for. If the Watchtower did not instill this sense of urgency on its members of the impending traveristy then it would loose much controll of its members.

    People do not speak out against the Empor because they are afraid of the consequences. Therefor the evdience of the supposed presence of Christ is all in the witnesses head. This has been the case with many generations of witnesses.

    They first held the presence of Christ to be 1799.
    Back then they could see the sings of his presence.

    They then chaanged it to 1874.
    Back then they could see the signs of Christs return.

    Now they hold the presence of Christs return as 1914.
    They can still see the signs of his presence.

    ***********************

    When will people who hold this belief come to realize that it is nothing more than prophetic specluation. When will they learn from the mistakes of others.

    Before 1874 when they thought that he had returned in 1799 they had all the proof and all the evidence but they were wrong.

    After 1874 when the world dident end and they thought that Christ had instead returned invisibly they had all the proof all the signs but they were wrong.

    Now after 1914 when the world dident end again and the speculated that Christ returned invisibly in 1914 they have all the proof and all the signs but they some how think that they are better than the others.

    When will the cycle end?

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Leander: The books "Crisis of Conscience" by Ray Franz, and Sign of the Last Days - When?" and "Gentile Times Reconsidered" both by Carl Olaf Jonnson provide the best information on the 1914 date and the Watchtower position.

    You can also save a lot of time with this by looking at this another way:

    1. In a couple of relatively recent books the Society admitted that they first believed Jesus returned invisibly in 1874 ... I believe these were: "God's Kingdom of a 1,000 years has Approached" circa mid 1970s and the "Proclaimers" book ... and this belief was held until 1929 ... when, in a book by JF Rutherford, "Prophecy" pg. 65. Up until then, 1914 was considered the END of the Gentile Times with Armageddon due no later than 1914. But with the failure of 1914 to realize that Armageddon had come, the Society then stated that the world had really ended, but that the "Lease of the Gentile Nations ran out," but had yet to be evicted ... a soon to be realized event. Shear spin doctoring.

    2. When the date 1914 was finally redefined, the Society moved Jesus second presence from 1874 to 1914. The Society also defined this as the 'start of the Last Days' (previously believed to start in 1799 with the French Revolution) ... and that the end would have to be realized within "one generation." When I became a JW the Society pounded and hammered this issue, and that is why 1975 was so highly regarding ... as it was reasonably within one generation from 1914, and fit the time line of the 7th part of the 7th creative day, the Great Antypical Jubliee ... and it fit the end of 6,000 years since the creation of Adam. It was all SO PERFECT!!!

    3. Psalms 90:10 states that our life is 70 years, or 80 years with special mightiness. A Generation is normally defined as 20 to 35 years ... but assuming that in the Biblical sense a generation is a maximum of our upper life-span of 80 years ... then, if we add 80 years to 1914 ... we get 1994 ... we are now 8 years past 1994! Therefore, the Watchtower belief about 1914 is proven false without question, doubt or fear!!!

    4. The Greek word: "Parousia" translated "Presence" by the Society is mistranslated by the Society. If you talk to Greek speaking people, or Greek scholars, the word Parousia means "Coming" and refers to Jesus promised glorious return with great drama ... however, even if you use the English word "Presence" it does NOT require any INVISIBILITY ... as this was an invention by Nelson Barbour, Charles Russell, John Aquilla Broan, John Thomas and others trying to expalin away their false prophecies in the 19th century ... and 'invisibility' became the tool they needed to spin these failed events and predictions to appear as though they were 'fulfilled, but we just didn't see it.'

    5. Finally, in Matthew 24, Jesus does NOT say that there are signs to help us know he is coming or present. He said NOT to look to these events, for the end is not yet. He finally answers the 'coming' or 'presence' question near the end of the chapter, when he said that the presence of the Son of Man will be like lightening shinning from the east all the way to the west ... no one would miss it. He instead warded of false Christs and false claims of his being present in the wilderness, or the inner chambers, or some other strange place.

    6. As far as the 607 BCE vs 587 BCE and attempting to assign 2,520 years ... the real problem is not whether we count from 587-586 or 607-606 BCE ... but the "whole concept" of how the Society develops 2,520 years (7 x 360) in the first place. It is pure fantasy ... and proven to be fraudulent ... understanding the book of Daniel requires the interpretation be by "Inspiration of Holy Spirit" ... which the Society has proven not to be so Inspired ... and the Society claims in recent years that they are now "not inspired" ... Therefore, they are not able to understand the prophecy of Daniel by thier own admission.

    7. Jesus clearly told the disciples that it does NOT BELONG to them to get the knowledge of times and seasons ... in response to their desire to know when he would return ... Read the first chapter of Acts. Therefore, to try and figure out dates and times and seasons, and ages, and Dispensations, and eras, and so forth is an act that is in direct and deliberate violation of Jesus words ... and such disobedience proves that groups like the JWs must be and are unChristian organizations.

    There is no way that the Society can ever deal with these 7 issues. They can only 'spin doctor' their way around them ... and that is a clear sign they are not of God, for God never ever dealt this way with earlier prophets.

    Following Bible principles, we will avoid trying to live - or demand others to live - by an extensive and rigid set of dos and don'ts that go beyond the teachings of the Bible. The Watchtower, 4-15-02, pg 22, pp 15

  • rhett
    rhett

    The former director of the British Natural History Museum once remarked about JW's visiting the museum. He said something along the lines of he found it amazing how the JW's would come in and be so impressed with the museums historic displays and what not and took everything said as the absolute truth except the 1914 date.
    Long story short, Russell was a pathetic historian. He figured out that 1914 was supposed to be big and important. Later someone else pointed out where Russell's ideas in regard to dates were flawed. Instead of moving the date to the correct year they basically said Jeruselem was destroyed in a different year than what is widely accepted by every single historian out there. If you read "Crisis of Conscience" Franz even talks about how when writing a book for the society it was his job to do his best to discredit the truth about that and how near impossible it was.

    Back down the bullies to the back of the bus
    Its time for them to be scared of us

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Leander, you've heard right -- 1914 has nothing of the significance that JWs claim. They claim that the date is significant based on a provably wrong chronology and a provably wrong set of interpretations of a few of Jesus' words. Here is why:

    JWs interpret various prophecies and Bible passages as saying that there would be a period of 2520 years called "the Gentile times" which supposedly began in 607 B.C. and ended in 1914 A.D. But every step of their calculation is based on things that are either not provable from the Bible (i.e., they're purely speculative), or can be disproved from the Bible and/or secular history.

    The 607 B.C. date for the fall of Jerusalem can be proved wrong both Biblically and secularly. JWs base this date on the claim that "the 70 years of Jeremiah" (cf. Jer. 25:11, 12; 29:10) were both a period of captivity of the Jews to Babylon and a period of desolation of Jerusalem that ended in the autumn of 537 B.C. when the Jews arrived back in Judah after nearly 70 years of captivity in Babylon. Counting back exactly 70 years gets you to the autumn of 607 B.C., which they claim was therefore when the desolation of Judah began. However, there are many things that disprove this claim. 2 Chronicles 36:20 unambiguously states that the Jews were no longer captive to "the king of Babylon" after "the royalty of Persia began to reign". Both the Watchtower Society and secular historians agree that this happened in 539 B.C., and so the captivity of the Jews to "the king of Babylon" must have ended in 539, not 537 B.C. Thus the "70 years of Jeremiah" must have ended in 539 B.C. This alone destroys the basis for Watchtower calculations.

    Jeremiah 25:11, along with a number of other passages, proves that the 70-year period was not one of captivity of the Jews and desolation of Jerusalem, but of Babylonian supremacy over not just the Jews, but the nations round about Judah. Jeremiah 29:10, translated properly, supports this: "For this is what Jehovah has said, 'In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years for Babylon I shall turn my attention to you people, and I will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.' " In other words, about the time when, or "in accord with" when, the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy were fulfilled, or completed, God would return the Jews to Judah. This certainly occurred when the 70 years were fulfilled or completed in 539 B.C., and within two years the Jews returned to Judah.

    In conjunction with 2 Chronicles 36:20 and Jeremiah 25:11, Jeremiah 25:12 shows that the 70-year period was not what the Watchtower Society claims. The passage states that "when seventy years have been fulfilled" God would "call to account against the king of Babylon" or punish him. It is unarguable that this punishment began to occur when the armies of Cyrus the Persian overthrew "the king of Babylon" in 539 B.C., killing the secondary king Belshazzar and subjugating the primary king Nabonidus. Jeremiah 27:6, 7 indicate that "the king of Babylon" being referred to was the line of Babylonian kings beginning with Nebuchadnezzar, and that the Jews and nations round about that were subjugated by these kings would remain subject to them "until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant." Obviously this began to occur in 539 B.C. when Nebuchadnezzar's line ended. Nabonidus was probably married to Nebuchadnezzar's daughter and Belshazzar was probably their son, and therefore Nebuchadnezzar's grandson, so this whole scenario is self-consistent and consistent with the above-referenced scriptures.

    So it is clear that the "70 years of Jeremiah" must have begun in 539 rather than 537 B.C., and therefore the basis for Watchtower chronology is wrong. Secular history, again supported by the Bible, indicates that the 70 years probably began in 609 B.C. when the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar's father Nabopolassar put a final end to the Assyrian empire and began a period of supremacy over all the other nations in the Middle East.

    You can get a much fuller explanation of the above material in the book The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonsson (available through the Freeminds website http://www.freeminds.org ).

    Today many JWs are beginning to acknowledge that the traditional WTS chronology is wrong. But they still cling to the 1914 date because without it all claims that something of prophetic signficance occurred about that time have no foundation at all. Without the "1914 chronology" it's easy to see that everything the Society has claimed are pure smoke.

    The Society has traditionally interpreted various passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 as being a prophecy about "signs of the end" which careful Bible students would be able to observe and then conclude that "the time of the end" had begun. Such "signs" include earthquakes, war, famine and pestilence. The Society has long claimed that these things have been strikingly in evidence since 1914, and therefore that "the sign" has been observed and so we are in a period they call "Christ's parousia or presence". However, a careful examination of each feature of the Society's claim shows that everything they claim is wrong.

    First, the claim that the Greek word parousia means "presence" in Matthew 24:3 and a few other key Bible passages is demonstrably wrong. The word certainly means "presence" in some contexts, but the Society consistently fails to inform its followers that the word also means "arrival, coming, advent, the royal arrival/visit of a king". A careful analysis of all of the relevant Bible passages that bear on "the second coming" of Christ proves that the latter senses are what the Bible writers had in mind, not an extended "presence" in which Christ would rule invisibly and which could only be recognized by those with "eyes of faith". Keep in mind that this notion of an invisible presence was adopted by Nelson Barbour and his followers in 1875, after they searched around for an excuse as to why Barbour's prediction that "the world would end" in 1873/1874 failed. They concluded that the world had indeed ended in a certain fashion, and that Christ had indeed begun ruling in heaven in 1874 -- only no one could see it. In 1876 Charles Taze Russell adopted this ridiculous notion and it, or the equally ridiculous notion that Christ began ruling invisibly in 1914, has been standard Watchtower fare ever since.

    Next note that not a single one of the claimed "signs of the end" has been noticeably greater than before 1914. In fact, some of them are far less in evidence. Earthquakes since 1914 have killed slightly more than the number of people on average per year than they did 300 years ago. But because the population today is 4-5 times greater, the risk of being killed in a quake is 3-4 times lower. Therefore, if anything, earthquakes are an "anti-sign". Today famine and pestilence still kill plenty of people, but far fewer than in any previous century on average. Before 1914 it was not uncommon for nearly an entire village or city to be wiped out by such, but that doesn't happen today. What about war? Again a careful study shows that on average, war kills about the same percentage of population as it has during the previous five centuries.

    In view of the above facts, it is evident that there is no observable "sign" such as Jehovah's Witnesses would have you believe. The few semi-enlightened JWs who acknowledge that their chronology is probably wrong and that the facts of history about earthquakes, war, famine and pestilence as outlined above are correct, turn right around and make a new claim: that Jesus' words about a "sign" don't necessarily mean that these "features" need to be particularly in evidence, but only that they need to be present. But that's ridiculous on its face. If these "signs" are no worse than ever before, and some are not even as bad, then they cannot possibly be used to distinguish our time from any other. It would be like saying, "I will return from vacation when the grass is green, the sky is blue and young men are lusting after young women." It would be meaningless, and you could not tell from anything I said when I was about to return from vacation.

    In view of the above, it is evident that Jesus' words, if they have any meaning at all, must mean something quite different from what these many always-wrong end-times proclaimers claim. Indeed, a careful reading of the Gospel accounts shows that Jesus was telling his listeners exactly the opposite of what they claim -- that things like earthquakes, war, famine and pestilence are common things that would always be observed and therefore that they should not be interpreted as signs of anything. This is reasonable because such things had been traditional elements of Jewish apocalyptism, which Jesus clearly wanted his followers to have no part of.

    The notion that Jesus was warning his followers not to be deceived by claims that someone could observe "signs of the end" and therefore issue an advance warning to Christians not as astutely observant as themselves is epitomized in two scriptures:

    "On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming." (Matthew 24:44)

    "Look out that you are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and, 'The due time has approached.' Do not go after them." (Luke 21:8)

    Jehovah's Witnesses and other rabid end-times proclaimers consistently ignore these scriptures and think that they don't apply to them. You can see it in the excuses given by JW defenders everywhere, including such lights as You Know in this very thread. When challenged with such facts in an open forum, they inevitably ignore the facts and/or run away. Watch for this behavior here.

    You can get a much fuller explanation of the above ideas in the book The Sign of the Last Days: When? by Carl Olof Jonsson (available through the Freeminds website http://www.freeminds.org ).

    Jerome gave a fine commentary on how much was wrong with the Bible Students in 1919 when they claim that Jesus found them so extraordinarily faithful that he appointed them "over all his belongings". Clearly, their claims are nonsense. Amazing also gave a fine summary of what is wrong with JW claims.

    In view of the above ideas, it is evident that the claims of JWs and their apologists that true Christians can know when Christ is about to return are without foundation. Many already admit that the traditional Watchtower chronology is wrong, so they can get no information from it. It is evident that their claims about observing "the signs of the times" are nothing more than wishful thinking. Therefore it is as you said: "everything else crumbles".

    A lot of the above material can be found in the books by Raymond Franz Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom (available through the Freeminds website http://www.freeminds.org ).

    AlanF

  • gumby
    gumby

    YK..said..It is possible that the chronology could be flawed and yet the prophecies can still be on track.

    The chronology COULD be flawed? Is this what you believe YK...it could be?....or IS?

    Flawed? Do you mean their dates were WRONG? Isn't that FALSE PROPHECY according to the Watchtowers OWN definition?
    They had the DATES WRONG several times but now it's correct and we should believe the current way, if I understand the dub way of thinking?

    Do you really think YOU (The Borg)are the ONLY ones on this planet who thinks Christ return is near and so you are people of HIS choice?

    At least other Fundy churches that I know of have NOT made predictions and set dates for christs return as the Borg has!

    The Borg stands in starck contrast to others for its continued erronious ever shifting teachings that truly represents "CONFUSION".. IF... this is what is meant by Babylon in the bible.

    How many people are DEAD from other churches false teachings on medical blunders the Borg has under it's belt?

    How you can sleep at night is truly an inigma to me!

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest Leander... may you have peace... and may I respond? Thank you!

    The following FACTS will help you to 'see' that there is nothing substantial about 1914 than any other year since that time in THIS realm:

    Supposedly, 1914 is the time my Lord 'returned', 'arrived', began 'ruling as king', started his 'invisible presence' etc. But note:

    My Lord will only arrive once more... and THIS time as he REALLY is... and 'every eye will SEE him'. Indeed, he is now an invisible presence, BECAUSE HE IS A SPIRIT, but that presence started in 30CE and NOT 1914, as can been 'seen' by my Lord's words BEFORE he was impaled:

    "I shall NOT leave you bereaved; I am COMING TO YOU!'

    and AFTER his impalement and subsequent resurrection, he APPEARED to them and finally said:

    Look! I am WITH you... ALL the days..."

    Thus, the women and apostles saw him, Paul heard him, John saw him, etc.

    My Lord began RULING as of the night of Pentecost 30CE... as EVIDENCED BY THE OUTPOURING OF HOLY SPIRIT... and has, by means OF that spirit... been 'subduing'... or calling, choosing and anointing ones WITH such spirit... which results in their being 'subdued'... or taught and granted PEACE... by means of that spirit... in the MIDST of his ENEMIES. How so? His enemies, including the 'last enemy', Death... still exist!

    Dear one, when he ascended on high, he did not sit at my Father's right hand doing NOTHING, but began ruling among HIS people since that very day. He will return once again... to 'gather to himself' such people, to take them to his Father's 'house'... to be joined COMPLETELY in union with him. And thus, we will become ONE with him, and thereby ONE... with God.

    I hope this helps.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • gumby
    gumby

    Shelby..Indeed, he is now an invisible presence, BECAUSE HE IS A SPIRIT,

    Jesus was raised in a physical body correct? (or do you still believe the dub way?)

    If you believe he was raised in a PHYSICAL body....the fleshly body that was dead and was raised again (only glorified)......then my question is this...............at what point in his departure to heaven was he changed from flesh to spirit?

    A scripture would help.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest Gumby... peace to you!

    To save board space and not be redundant (I know... ME? Not be redundant? LOLOLOLOL!), you can find my understanding of the matter here:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=24161&site=3

    Again, peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Flip
    Flip

    [quoteYou know is one of the few jw sympathizers who has actually come to the conclusion that the WTBS chronology is wrong.[/quote]

    In so many words of nuance, so has the WTBTS Corporation. However, it appears they would rather just let their conjured little historic event slide into oblivion, which is normal corporate procedure of course.

    Flip

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit