Apostates are blown out of the water by an elder's response to my e-mail

by never a jw 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    The pinnacle question is....."is it possible to leave the WT for legitimate concerns or doctrinal issues?" You will never hear them say yes, they will snake around the answer. He is basically saying the problem with apostates is... They don't believe what we believe about Jesus's teachings and they are therefore dangerous, wrong, lost, hopeless, mentally diseased etc etc, etc....of course this is a dangerous, illogical and wrong approach to any question. It is equivelant to a flat earth believer saying that "the problem with round-earthers is they don't believe what we believe about a flat earth." They never ask WHY we no longer believe what they believe, they never deal with the ISSUES regarding our different opinion and view. They are simply not allowed to have anything but the WT intepretation and discussion outside of those constraints is frowned upon.

    In no other realm of society does someone disregard concerns or questions because the person has concerns and questions. Especially if they are supported by evidence and logic, but you won't even get as far as evidence and logic as questioning itself is well beyond the permitted line. Questioning and doubting and trusting your own mind are all seen as weaknesses. However, back in the real world questions, doubts an trusting your thoughts leads to mobile phones, computers, cars, medicine, problem solving, science, new knowledge etc etc etc

    Ironically, if the governing body themselves are allowed to doubt themselves, obvious by their constant alterations etc, then why can't everyone else? After all, they make it clear that they are just human too and not spirit inspired (to cover their asses on mistakes and false/old teachings). If Ray Franz was able to become a gov body member and become so much of a doubter so as to leave, then there is an issue in thinking these me are infallible. Even if you think ray was apostate, you are admitting that an apostate can be on the gov body and therefore..... One should question everything they teach.

    I am sure the email receiver would admit that alterations have been made in WT and that doctrines are constantly altered, if the WT society can examine itself and see fault and false teachings, so can other humans!!!! Hence people CAN leave for legitimate issues. Unless he wants to claim that there will never again be a doctrinal alteration from HQ.

    Just to round off my reply, as a non jw, you should know how wrong he is aout WHO I am. this made me very, very angry. I will happily allow you to mention me to him if you wish. I will even give you my details if he doubts me. I was a bethelite, a pioneer. I left because the WT has lied and continues to lie about the bible, about science and about its dealings as a charity/religion. When I asked my elders about these issues, I was not given answers I was asked to stay away from meetings whilst I had these questions. The elders told my friends i had dangerous questions and my best pal told me "while you question our beliefs we can't be in the same social circle." Note that I have done no more of a crime than question, mostly issues to do with hebrew translation, science and evolution and owning shares in a military company (Rand Cam).Despite 20 years service I wasn't offered answers, just the door. I left, I did my own research and ended up a non believer. I was never DF'dor DA'd. Some 7 years on I am now an atheist. I went back to school and then university, I have a science degree and I am now 1 year away from being a doctor... Why? Because the person that cared about others and so went knocking doors is still here, I still care about people and I would argue I care about them now more than ever! The man i am now would never want a paradise if even one person had to die for me to have it. i also feel brave enough to admit I have distain for the actions of the god of the bible, I abhor the genocides. the wars, the ethnic cleansing, the infanticides, the racism, the homophobia, the sexism,the kidnapping and rapes.... All condoned and commanded by god. Finally, i do good for neither divine or congregational reward or fear of punishment, but I simply do good because it benefits society.

    As for persecution and personal attacks from the believers, It takes COURAGE to face doubts, questions and their answers. It is COWARDLY and ignorant, not to memtion an indicator of being controlled to attack people you have never met, for simply daring to ask, put effort into research and being open minded to answers they dare to Seek.

    Accepting all your data on science, world history, theology and life from one source is dangerous and outright stupid. Want to know the OT's meaning about blood, ask a Hebrew scholar not an ex window cleaner who was 'privelaged' to become a staff writer in a Brooklyn factory! Want to know the dangers of blood? Ask a haematologist not an ex shop clerk. Who on earth is even writing the material at WT? As a medic I was appalled to see the new JW website quoting HIV figures from 30 years ago before blood screening etc was available, yet presenting that data in 2013.That is misleading, dangerous and immoral. This could mean your life, or the life of a child. If a doctor did that they would be sacked and struck off immediatly. So why use such poor sources for info on such important issues? the WT track record is appalling! The reasoning book quotes christian science books from the 1800's !! Their latest brochure on evolution quotes references about the amount of evidence we have for evolution 'this century'.... but its a quote from the 1800's! They are that deceitful and this is the danger of never doubting the WT literature! One only needs to look at its past to see how off the mark it was and remains, of course the people back in the early days were told to believe it unquestionably too.. A small few examples being how they once vilified vaccines, the Internet, TV, organ transplants, antibiotics, even odd things like aluminium, once claiming it to be a source of cancer and a devilish metal. Then there was the 'miracle wheat' sold from the pages of the WT under Russell, it turned out not to be so miraculous. Government tests found it to be sub-standard and the Brooklyn Eagle won a liable case after calling Pastor Russell a conman. Anyone who bought the miracle wheat doubtless wished they had an ounce more doubt and questioning in them.

    These governing body men today are against higher education and none are qualified on the topics they dictate or discuss. The writing department itself remains anonymous, not as a shining example of humility as they claim, (trust me I have met some and they let you know what they do!) but a dangerous example of unknown and unprofessional writing in that there is never a known line of sourcing re: Plausible deniability by design!! Who is responsible if there is no name attached to a dangerous sentence? In a recent austarlian court case, the JW lawyer claimed that the FDS was a doctrinal idea, not a real body or group, they are protecting their asses not "all the belongings".

    If I had a dollar for every time the writers said "some scientists claim....." Who? Where! When? And what EXACTLY did they say? In every occurrence of the WT using such techniques including 'quote mining' I have found them to be wholly deceitful. There are documents online with nothing but the original quote v the Watchtower quote so one can see the dishonesty employed by its writers. What excuse is there in existence good enough to explain away this deception? There are hundreds of these examples for anyone to see. Does the elder you emailed believe anyone seeing this to be 'misled' or disagreeing with 'teachings of jesus' or no longer 'caring' about people? How ignorant!

    The second you examine any 'facts' or 'evidence' the house of cards soon falls down. By chance the last thing I looked at this evening was a public talk on creation and evolution, it quoted a scientist denying evolution, a Dr Denet.....Thirty seconds of research online however and in reality he is a self proclaimed evolutionist, but a Christian, he even denies biblical creation. Scrape the surface and it all tumbles down so quickly, for lies are easy to extinguish in an age of information.

    The worst crime of all is WT making belief that truth needs defending and that one can be deceived from truth with questions, doubts and research. Of course, in reality truth does not need fencing off, it will see itself standing firm against all questions, doubts and critisism as it is by its nature true. Deception however requires significant fencing off from information as its nature can be made evident with EVERY doubt, question and critisism.

    Snare & Racket

    P.s. I am on call, on a labor ward. Every baby born is a beautiful empty vessel, all born atheist and unbiased. It is up to us to teach them to appraise, to encourage questioning, doubting and seeking. It is nothing less than child abuse in my mind, to kill of that sense of searching with threats of shunning, abandonment, the spiritual crime of apostasy and labels of mentally diseased or 'infected'. In my current circumstances those old beliefs I was forced to accept as a child, seem so foreign, immoral and and cultish now....... thankfully!

    The irony is, the bible students all started with a few people with doubts and questions concerning their beliefs, now group bible discussion outside of an arranged meeting is forbidden by WT. Alarm bells really should go off at tha point....

  • Amelia Ashton
    Amelia Ashton

    Others have stopped caring about the public in general and no longer witness about God's truths as they used to before.

    Caring about the public in general is not allowed unless it is in the form of offering magazines.

    Anything more and you are likely to get counselled by an elder!!!

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    Never a jw, Mr Elder did not answer your questions. He is a Watchtard. His thinking has become disabled.

    Others have stopped caring about the public in general and no longer witness about God's truths as they used to before. And as for the Christian command of meeting together, they don't.

    My father is 85 years old and suffering from dementia. He sleeps all day and is wheelchair bound. He doesn't know what day it is. He no longer has the ability to perform these 'mandatory' activities. I guess the truth about Jehovah is that only the young, able minded, and able bodied are of value.

    Millions of people have stopped attending religious services in many different denominations, because they have had a change of heart. But the fact that it happens does not prove their former faith to be wrong.

    This is the "we are 20% correct, so we aren't all wrong" argument. The problem with this is, it's untrustworthy. How do you know what is truth and what is not? And this is why religion isn't working. It is based on false information. Bronze-Aged Middle Eastern mens' mythology does not make truth. And when your blinders come off, when you become truly educated about what the Bible really is, when you see the man behind the curtain, when you realize that it is all about fear, control, judgment, and punishment, people are disgusted and walk away. We have all been lied to. Once you come to understand this, you can no longer trust.

    We each need to decide what "truth" we will believe. Let us hope (and pray) we have found the real truth.

    Mr Elder Dear Mr Elder, Truth doesn't change.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    My take on it.

    No. As others have indicated, he didn't answer your questions. There are some revealing statements he makes, however.

    You: Apostates are "unhappy", or "not pleasant people" according to some other JW's that I personally know. The WT also hurls other hateful labels and descriptions such as. "mentally diseased", "like a dog that returns to its vomit" and many more.

    Him: Well, no. I do not think apostates are all those things you mentioned.

    Is he, then, disagreeing with the WT's assessment of 'apostates' or does he think the labels are too harsh?

    Him: But, for the most part, their actions tell me they are not following Jesus example or teachings. For example, many of them have indeed re-adopted false doctrines. Others have stopped caring about the public in general and no longer witness about God's truths as they used to before. And as for the Christian command of meeting together, they don't.

    Sweeping generalization. Also, he's assuming that they have broken away from God's truth which makes his later comments puzzling.

    Him: Millions of people have stopped attending religious services in many different denominations, because they have had a change of heart. But the fact that it happens does not prove their former faith to be wrong.

    Say what? Is he suggesting that other denominations may be right ... that just because people leave their religions, it does not mean their religion was wrong? What about JW converts who left their former denominations?

    Him: Likewise, a person who stops being a Witness has not "finally seen the light", they have simply had a change of heart, and that is as it should be. They have let themselves be convinced of another truth.

    "Another truth"? Before, he said that 'apostates' adopt false doctrines and no longer witness about God's truths. So what 'other truth' is he talking about? He's acknowledging that those who leave do so because they believe the truth. If they leave because of truth, why are they hated? (Cp. John 4:23, 24)

    He's trying to present an answer that he thinks you want to hear as an interested person and soften (avoid) the harder WT stance. Unfortunately, his response comes across as muddled. You're going to have to press him on your original questions. Black Sheep has often said in the past that if you find they answer something you didn't ask, and they keep avoiding directly and truthfully answering what you did ask, you're asking the right question and not to discuss anything else until they have satisfactorily answered your question.

    Good luck!

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks for the thread !

    very revealing of the poor reasoning of this mind-controlled drone Elder, he doesn't know what truth is, in common with most JW's, truth is only what the GB/WT happen to be teaching today, in his view.

    Snare and Racket's post is a keeper ! I have filed it away in my now huge file of "Best Ofs" from JWN and elsewhere. Thanks Snare, I can pull that out anytime and get a JW to read it.

    Maybe you should use most of the points in that post Never a JW !

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    and that is as it should be.

    What a disingenuous stetement. According to the watchtower(R) it SHOULDN'T be anything other than what they say!

    All he's done is to pour honey over excrement!

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Tylinbrando,

    The name of the thread was sarcastic as sarcastic can get.

    Snare & Racket, and everyone who have posted their reactions,

    I am saving your responses in my 1/2 million digital pages of what's wrong with the WT.

    Thank you all for your very passionate responses. Even though I know the WT history and doctrine as well as you do, I didn't think the thread was going to upset you so much. Then again, I never walked in your shoes and, as an outsider who has never been personally hurt by the WT, my analysis of the WT tends to be mostly objective. Obviously, I haven't completely processed the extent of the pain and suffering that many of you have gone through.

    There's a prequel and a sequel to these e-mails. I will post the sequel in my next comment here, but if anyone suggests to dedicate a special thread we can try that too

  • zed is dead
    zed is dead

    I am looking forward to the next emails; and I did catch your sarcasm in the thread title. I am so glad that they do not have you hoodwinked!

    zed

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    This blew him (the elder) out the water!

    Millions of people have stopped attending religious services in many different denominations, because they have had a change of heart. But the fact that it happens does not prove their former faith to be wrong.

    Like SD said this is true but he kinda confirmed that just because someone left the baptist religion to become a JW does not mean that the baptist are wrong?!?

    DO these asshats even understand the BS they spew?!? The whole make-up of JW's so called preaching work is to convert!

    He can put whatever freakin spin on it he wants WE ALL KNOW that a JW job when he knocks on a door is to place some rags and hopefully find a Bible study to convert!

    Shit they arent out there just to clarify someones biblical understanding they are there TO BRING SOME FOOLS THINKING IN LINE WITH THEIRS!

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    My reaction to his e-mail posted at the beginning Mr. Elder XXXX, You missed the point altogether. My email was not interested in defending apostates' character or their way of life. I reiterate my question: Do they have valid arguments regarding the dozens of issues they have raised against the WT? Without resorting to attacks to the messenger, can you argue successfully against their message regarding 587 vs 607, the U.N. debacle, medical directive inconsistency with doctrine (blood fractions), Bible translation, Bible interpretation, history revisionism, misquoting, quoting out of context, quoting from questionable sources, double standards (Malawi vs. Mexico), unfairness of shunning against those who were raised in the truth, and baptised at a young age, but later disagree with WT doctrine, etc, etc.. I believe this is the fourth or fifth time you avoid a direct and a specific question. I have to assume that you don't have a good answer. [the other unanswered questions deserve a thread of their own] . Never a JW . . His answer to the e-mail above (I didn't add anything, nor did I change a single character, only my name and his have been changed) Dear Never a JW I do not have a good answer to those questions because I have not taken the time to study them in detail.

    I have, however, many times studied similar issues in detail and have always arrived at the same conclusion: they boil down to matters of opinion that cannot be unconditionally proven true or false. That is the state of things.

    This may sound like I'm avoiding the issue, and I am, in a sense. But I have a good reason for it.

    To me, the evidence that the Bible is the Word of God is so overwhelming that I choose to devote my energies to understanding it better, and gaining a closer relationship with God rather than spending that time looking into the issues you mention. Time is limited, and, to use a quote think I used before: "If you would love life, take care of how you use your time. For time is the stuff that life is made of."

    They say some people cannot see the forest for the trees. I consider many of these issues to be the trees, and I will not allow them to cloud my clear thinking ability, just as you will not allow the Watchtower publications to cloud yours. And that is as it should be.

    I know you will find fault with something I have written above. And that is as it should be as well. Mr. Elder XXXX

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