by slimboyfat 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
To be fair, many of those things are illegal such as murder and manslaughter and the child things under 10-14, #25,
34,35,37,39, 40, 48
"#19: Fondling breasts without the intention of marrying So if we're engaged, it's ok! "
Technically if two are engaged, then it is not fornication for anything since it would be done for love and not for pornea.
7. One who was raped would not be guilty of pornei'a. Discernment is needed in considering claims of rape, taking into consideration such factors as the mental disposition of the person, the circumstances that led up to the incident, and any delay in reporting. (emphasis original)
What on earth does that mean? In what sense is this a judicial matter for the victim? Discernment is needed in determining what exactly? And what are the consequences of "mental disposition", "circumstances that led up to the incident", and "delay in reporting"?
The clue is in the references that come right at the end of the paragraph - "w03 2/1 pp.30-31; it-1 pp.862-864; w83 3/15 p. 30 ftn."
w03 - QFR encouraging screaming and resisting if raped. There was an acknowledgment that that may not always be possible.
it-1 - 'Fornication' - there is a section on the Mosaic law and rape victims. If the girl screamed, it showed that she was not consenting.
w83 ftn. - just says forceable rape is not classed as porneia.
I suspect the factors warranting 'discernment' and 'consideration' (in the elders' minds) would go along these lines:
The mental disposition - How did she feel before, during and after the alleged attack? Did she struggle/scream? Could she struggle/scream?
Circumstances that led up to the incident - Where was she? What was she doing there? (Based on anecdotes I've heard in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if they asked) What was she wearing and did she lead the guy on?
Reporting - did she make a police report? If not, why not? If there was a delay in doing so, why? Same questions regarding reporting to the elders.
For comparison, the 1991 Pay Attention book, on the matter of avoiding "getting into situations that might involve acts of self-defense" (p. 141), said:
If assaulted, a Christian could ward off blows or even escape from the attacker by temporarily incapacitating him.
A Christian woman threatened with rape should resist to the best of her ability. (Deut. 22:23-27; g84 2/22 pp. 24-7; w83 3/15 p. 30; g80 7/8 pp. 9-13; g73 4/22 pp. 16-17; w68 6/1 pp. 345-50)
Screaming is usually one of the best defenses, however, some individuals are unable to scream out of intense fear. (A male or female who is forcibly raped would not guilty of porneia.
This part puzzled me, from "Shepherding The Flock 2010"
"Por·nei'a involves immoral use of the genitals,.......................It includes oral sex, anal sex, and manipulation of the genitals between individuals not married to each other."
OK we understood that , but then it says:
"Pornei'a does not require skin-to-skin contact, copulation (as in penetration), or sexual climax.
Huh? If you are not even touching the actual body, how can that be equal to "fornication"?
Huh? If you are not even touching the actual body, how can that be equal to "fornication"?
In WT-world, phone sex, cyber sex, even in-vitro fertilization involving someone you are not married to all constitutes "porneia".
BluesBrother dry humping without a happy ending? That's what I thought they were getting at. It's amazing how coy they are at times in actually stating what they mean! You need to read between the lines.
But Ann the paragraph starts out by stating that rape is not pornei'a. Are they contradicting themselves, implying that sometimes it can still be pornei'a, if the person invited the sexual attention, or if they "delayed" in reporting it?
I think sir82 is on the right lines. They are trying to close down a loophole where perhaps some young women who were found out as having had sex claimed that they were raped to avoid judicial action. So the Watchtower's clumsy way of dealing with it is to say that if the young woman was romantically involved with the person who raped them, going out with them, and they failed to report it as a rape at an early stage, then the elders should not believe them that it was rape and they will still be subject to disfellowshipping for fornication.
'Rape' isn't porneia. A 'claim of rape,' on investigation, may turn out to be, according to the elders' view. That's what it seems to be indicating to me.
Going to the YMCA. Participating in a non-JW religious service. Help with repairs on a church on a regular basis. Making frequent deliveries to a military base.
Yes Ann, I think you are right. What they are saying is that rape is not fornication, but that they get to decide what is really rape. Just becuase a woman says she was raped doesn't mean the elders will believe her.
They seem to imply that if a woman was somehow mentally disposed to have sex with the person, going out with them, or putting herself in a situation to have sex and/or delayed in reporting the incident as a rape that the elders should consider not believing that it was rape. But I don't think any of those factors would exclude rape in a legal sense, only in the Watchtower's moralistic meaning of the term.
So in theory a person could be raped, be judged to have been raped by a court of law, and yet the elders could decide it was not rape and disfellowship the person for fornication.
So in theory a person could be raped, be judged to have been raped by a court of law, and yet the elders could decide it was not rape and disfellowship the person for fornication.
It's a way for them to avoid the implications of saying 'rape is fornication' while still being able to handle cases of rape in the same exact manner as when they were saying 'rape is fornication' flat out in the literature. If that doesn't tell you how sick these guys are, I don't know what would.
--sd-7
Quote: In WT-world, phone sex, cyber sex, even in-vitro fertilization involving someone you are not married to all constitutes "porneia".
If that was so then a lot of people are "free" to get married to another person. I do not think they see phone sex and cyber sex as "porneia" really
