You Know admits his god is weak!

by ozziepost 39 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  roybatty

  You Know,

  Been there, done that. I respect your right to believe what you want to believe but I just don't buy into it anymore.
  I cannot even imagine Almighty God allowing a lowly creature to question His right to rule. Imagine you were a pre-school teacher, with a class room full of 5 year old kids. It's nap time and one bold child says "No, it's not nap time. I think that you are wrong and that the children of this classroom would be better off deciding for themselves if they wish to take a nap!" No sane adult would allow this! And the gap between an adult human to a child is nothing in comparison to that of God to Satan. It is not logical for God to allow this.
  The book of Job is just an account of a faithful man. Plain and simple. Kind of a side point but as I've re-read that account from time to time, I've wondered a couple of things as I've gotton away from believing what I was told to believe by the Society. One, where exactly did Satan enter into when he strolled in with the other angels. And two, throughout the account, God himself mentions that He was the source of Job's troubles. I wonder why He stated this?
• 

  144thousand_and_one

  You Know's god is certainly not weak. How else could you explain its ability to exploit children by encouraging their parents to require them to engage in marketing activities on behalf of the JW organization?

  You Know, I was one of those children who was forced by his parents to engage in marketing activites on behalf of the Jehovah's Witnesses. My parents were encouraged to do this by the teachings of your organization. I never had any faith in your organization's teachings, but carried out the marketing activities under duress. I wasn't paid for my marketing services.

  I left your cult as soon as I could (age 14), but paid the price. I was never baptized as it would have taken more than a beating to get me to devote my life to your organization.

  The Jehovah's Witnesses may not legally owe me compensation for the unjust enrichment they received at my expense, but they certainly have a moral debt to pay in this regard. Hopefully, some day the organization will wise up to the vast amount of bad feelings the exploitation of children they encourage is causing, and put out some more of that "new light" in the form of admonition to its members regarding this despicable practice.

  I pity the children who are currently subjected to this exploitation and despise those who facilitate it.
• 

  dungbeetle

  144, your post is a keeper and is going into my notebook for my grandkids, if you don't mind.

  ((((( 144 )))))))

  UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)
• 

  refiners fire

  I assume YOU KNOW is quoting Job.
  That book is relevant to Job, not to the "Universal issue", nowhere does it say in Job that this is related to the universal issue.
  Nowhere does it explain to the satisfaction of anyone wanting to know
  what the universal issue IS.
  1 third of the angels of heaven sided with the "resistor" over the "universal issue", what arguements Satan had to achieve this, noone knows.
  I cant myself see that people worship the Biblical God for reasons other than fear....anyway...
  Noone knows, cause the Bible doesnt tell us.
  Simple as that.
  Every thing the Christians offer on this subject is speculation.
  Job Was fat and wealthy, with all the pleasures of life. Would he curse God if he lost those things?
  God hasnt made me fat and wealthy. Even when I was a good dub.
  So unlike Job, I dont owe Him a thing.
• 

  Disengaged

  Hey You/Know

  Nice pic........You seem to be healing!

  "I wish that I knew what I know now, when I was younger.....Ooh La La,,,"
• 

  AlanF

  The JW doctrine of universal sovereignty, nicely explained by You Know, is completely nonsensical. The question of God's power is moot according to this doctrine because even Satan acknowledges that God is supremely powerful. So the doctrine is that Satan questioned God's right to rule, as well as whether God's creatures were all motivated by self-interest. A careful look at these notions shows that they're nonsensical too.

  In the final analysis the right to rule over anything is determined by power. The most powerful rules if he wants to. That's unaguable, because whoever ends up ruling over others after a battle over who should rule is by definition the most powerful. Since God is all-powerful by virtue of his being the Creator, and he has demonstrated his desire to continue ruling over all creation, he has the right to rule by virtue of his power. That's because all "rights" are granted by some authority.

  "But wait!" the typical JW will say. "We're not talking about God's right to rule by virtue of his power, but by virtue of his moral superiority and so forth." Well, pretty much the same argument holds here. Who determines what is moral and right? Whoever is the most powerful in the universe. Otherwise we would have to say that a standard of morals exists apart from God, and that God conforms to this standard. But a JW will not admit of this, because he will say that God sets the standard. So a JW will have to admit that he believes God is moral because and only because he is God. Thus the claim that God has a right to rule by virtue of his moral superiority is a meaningless tautology.

  The question of whether all creatures are motivated mainly by self-interest is ridiculous. In the realm of mankind we see a complete spectrum of motivations, from pure self-interest to massive selflessness, and this state has existed from mankind's beginnings. So that question has long been answered. The question can also be answered by considering that God is the all-knowing designer of mankind and that he has caused all their parts to be "down in writing" (from Psalms). All that a competent examiner has to do to see whether God designed mankind to have a range of motivations is to look over the "design specification document". God himself can certainly make the specs available. If a questioner is incompetent to examine the specs, then God wins. If a questioner questions the specs, God can enlighten him. To claim that only a field test could answer the question of motivation, as You Know and his beloved Society do, is to claim that God is incompetent.

  These arguments apply equally well to the claims of certain other Christians that God needed to demonstrate anything in order to prove to Satan or anyone else the nature of mankind.

  Finally there is a moral question: If God did indeed do as the Watchtower Society claims, then God is a monster unfit to rule. An illustration proves this easily. Suppose a human father is challenged by an adversary that his young children only appear to love him, and obey him only because they're afraid of him, and that given the opportunity they would dump him toute suite. The father challenges this claim and the adversary says, "Let me do anything I please to your children and we'll see who is right." The father says, "Ok" and the adversary proceeds to threaten and torture and deceive the children, who of course are not let in on the challenge. He kills some of the children in the process. The children see the father looking placidly on, watching their torture, and they conclude that the father doesn't love them. Who won the challenge? The father or the adversary? Did the father demonstrate love for his children? Of course not. He demonstrated the opposite, and so the adversary won.

  Of course, a JW will object to the above illustration, but all of their objections will evaporate, as can be shown by a demonstration: Anyone who thinks the above illustration is poor is welcome to challenge it and demonstrate why the father proves himself loving by allowing his children to be tortured and killed by a criminal.

  AlanF
• 

  dungbeetle

  Alan (1)

  YouKnow (0)

  Good thread/topic.

  UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)
• 

  144thousand_and_one

  Thanks Dung Beetle!

  I guess it's rather clear that my biggest gripe with the Witnesses relates to the horrific manner in which the organization encourages it faithful to raise their children. Exploitation and abuse are encouraged by the teachings of the JWs, resulting in severe emotional distress for defenseless children. It is my hope that some day legislation will be enacted that prohibits the use of child labor for the benefit of any religious organization.
• 

  ozziepost

  At least, YOUKNOW, you've done some thinking and some reasoning, and this is refelcted in a really good post.

  Yes indeed, you did well YK in espousing the orthodox Watchtower view. But as roybatty says "been there, done that".

  I notice that you refer to the experience of Job. Surely one occasion doesn't make for the usual experience of mankind or even the 'norm' does it?

  Also i notice something else: no scriptures?

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  Nemesis

  Great post Alan,

  I have always had a problem with the Watchtower’s teaching on sovereignty, and the supposed test—it goes something like this:

  They state:

  “The Main Issue-Sovereignty: When Adam and Eve rebelled against God, they challenged his sovereignty, that is, his right to rule. Jehovah could have destroyed them and started over with another couple, but that would not have settled the issue of whose rulership is right and best for people. Granted time to develop their societies according to their own ideas, humans would demonstrate beyond any doubt whether rulership independent from God could ever be successful….The 20th century saw a peak of scientific and industrial achievements. But it also saw the worst suffering in the entire history of the human race.”—Watchtower 2001, May 15 ( http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2001/5/15/article_02.htm)

  1. Where in the Bible does God grant independent rulership to humans to basically do their own thing for X amount of years—circa 6000—as part of a sovereignty issue/test?

  I cannot find any scriptures where God hands over rulership to mankind, and mankind is told to formulate its own governments and rulership independent of God for the purpose of a sovereignty issue. The article then goes on to say: “God’s Sovereignty Asserted Once and for all time, this tragic experiment in independence from God has demonstrated that rulership by humans apart from him can never succeed. Only God’s rulership can bring happiness, unity, health, and life.”

  2. Besides there being no scriptures to say there ever has been a sovereignty issue being resolved. How can this assumed [but not scriptural] test be fair and reasonable when God has deliberately made it an impossible test, and therefore cannot be a valid test in the first place?

  Right from the start of mankind's sin there has been no respect for rulership given to mankind by God. There are no scriptural accounts of any issues of sovereignty, or rulership being debated in the Bible. All the scriptures tell is that God is the rightful ruler of the universe—period.

  The unfairness of this hypothetical Watchtower’s current claimed “sovereignty issue” is apparent under a little analysis. Before mankind sinned, Satan was apparently the guardian of the earth—pure, perfect in form, wisdom, and beauty. (Ezekiel 28:12–19; Matthew 4:8) After Satan corrupted Adam and Eve he was allowed to keep the rulership of the earth by Yahweh God. At no point did God hand over rulership to Adam and Eve as far as the scriptures tell us.

  The problem with the Watchtower's claim of the settling of a “sovereignty issue” is that God has never declared a fix period when man would be allowed to prove his independent worth—and therefore settle the issue of whether God's way and rulership is best, or man's way.

  The first downfall of any chance at independent rulership is the fact that Satan rules the earth; he was never removed to give any clean slate for rulership by Adam and Eve, and their children to come. The situation of a fair chance is totally wiped out when we read that God apparently complaisantly watched as many thousands, possibly millions of his sprit sons came to earth and took over, and married those whom they desired. (Genesis 6:2) This then lead to them ruling the earth, and not humans at all. Later we read that the humanised angels and their hybrid children, the Nephilim, became violent and corrupted the earth.—Genesis 6:5, 6

  This account in the Bible clearly proves to us that God has never given rulership to man, or pronounced any issue, or test of sovereignty. God allowed his sons to come to earth and totally corrupt it to the point where God eventually acts, very late in the scene, and wipes almost all of humanity out of existence.—Genesis 6:11–13

  The situation is made a lot worse for mankind when God cursed mankind, and removed even the imperfect inheritance that they inherited from Adam and Eve of nearly one thousand years of life. Mankind suddenly lost their inheritance and were demoted to live around seventy years—thus increasing their pain, suffering, diseases, ageing, and very early death. All of this proves beyond any doubt that God has never given man his freedom to do as he chooses freely for approximately 6,000 years. Leaving Satan in charge, allowing millions of angels to come to earth, allowing their demonic children to exist and rule, and then cursing mankind to lose 90% of their lifespan all proves that there was never any sovereignty issue; and that man has certainly never been given even the most basic chance to self-rule independently, and free from Satan, demons, and God’s curses.

  The situation after the great flood proves even more that God never gave man any respect for self-rule, therefore proving that there never was a sovereignty issue. Soon after the flood, some people chose to build a tower, but instead of just letting them get on with it, and do as they wished; make their own plans, governments, and technology etc. God interfered and destroyed all their plans by confusing their language. (Genesis 11:1–9) The absolute destruction of their plans proves totally that humans were never: “Granted time to develop their societies according to their own ideas….” As the Watchtower society article claims.

  God clearly says about man and his abilities: “Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them.” (Genesis 11:6b) Showing that man's achievements would be without limit, and a success. This also shows that God absolutely refused to allow man to do as he wills, or to self-rule; thus showing also that there is no sovereignty issue in the process of being settled. Once the language had been split in to many, this would also have had some influence on national wars and conflicts, making it all the more impossible for man to succeed.

  The problems get far worse in the 20th century [according to the Watchtower] when God cast down Satan and the fallen angels to the earth. The scriptures clearly tell us that this will bring terrible suffering and woe to mankind. (Revelation 12:12) We are also told: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) All of these things completely prove beyond any doubt that God never had an issue with sovereignty, and has never allowed mankind any chance at independent self-rule.

  Therefore, I cannot understand why the Watchtower society claims there was a sovereignty issue, and that: “God's Sovereignty Asserted Once and for all time, this tragic experiment in independence from God has demonstrated that rulership by humans apart from him can never succeed. Only God's rulership can bring happiness, unity, health, and life.” This is clearly not the case at all, and never has been the case as the inspired scriptures prove perfectly.

  The Watchtower claims that God has now settled the issue, but we can see this is most certainly not the case at all, and never was. The only issue that has been demonstrated is that of Satan's rulership, and its failure to bring peace and prosperity to mankind. Unfortunately, we will never know how far man could have gone if left to his own devices for 6,000 years. It will always be an unanswered question, especially when God said of man: "Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them."—Genesis 11:6b