Alan Fraudbacker writes:
The JW doctrine of universal sovereignty, nicely explained by You Know, is completely nonsensical.
To you all things related to God are nonsensical. The Bible explains why that is where it says that to the physical man the things of the spirit are as nonsense.
In the final analysis the right to rule over anything is determined by power.
In the past Jehovah has demonstrated his power, such as in the case of the Exodus. And, that certainly shows that he could exert his dominion through sheer force if He so willed. The fact that He doesn't proves that there are other issues that God wishes to clear up first. Those issues have to do with the rightness of his way of ruling. So, in effect Jehovah has temporarily waved His absolute right to sovereignty in order to allow events to play themselves out that will prove to all observers that only He is qualified to be God.
Who determines what is moral and right? Whoever is the most powerful in the universe. Otherwise we would have to say that a standard of morals exists apart from God, and that God conforms to this standard.
That's true. And in this case Jehovah claims the sole right to determine what is right and wrong. The rightness of God's judgments is what has been called into question. However, right and wrong do exist apart from God as any reasonable person will admit. Paul recognized such and made a statement that people of the nations do BY NATURE the things of the Law and thus they demonstrte the matter of the law within. It is generally recognized by all humans that there is such a thing as right and wrong. Every human government has laws against murder and stealing and such things because everyone knows that they are wrong. In the final analysis God's moral laws are as absolute as His laws that govern the physical universe.
So a JW will have to admit that he believes God is moral because and only because he is God. Thus the claim that God has a right to rule by virtue of his moral superiority is a meaningless tautology.
Pure nonsense. As creatures made in God's image with the ablitiy to reason upon such things as right and wrong, God expects people to use their powers of reason to prove to themselves, as Paul said: "the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." The said will of God is revealed in the Holy Scriptures. No doubt, though, Jehovah's thoughts are meaningless to you, but that that in itself doesn't mean that they are without meaning. It simply means that you have refused to acknowledge that Jehovah is the source of the moral code that even you yourself live by to some extent.
The question of whether all creatures are motivated mainly by self-interest is ridiculous. In the realm of mankind we see a complete spectrum of motivations, from pure self-interest to massive selflessness, and this state has existed from mankind's beginnings.
Apparently you don't understand what the issue is, although you want to give others the impression that you do. The issues of integrity that Satan raised involved all of God's creatures. It is obvious that most creatures are motivated by selfish interest. That's not the issue. The Devil's contention is that ALL CREATURES are inherently selfish. The fact that a large number of humans and angels rebelled against God gives Satan's charge some amount of legitimacy. That the issue involves all creatures is evident from the fact that the foremost creature in God's family---Jesus Christ---stepped forward as one of Jehovah's Witnesses to stand up the the challenge. When Christ was faithful unto death the issue was settled. That's why Jesus said that he beheld Satan already falling from heaven like lightening.
The question can also be answered by considering that God is the all-knowing designer of mankind and that he has caused all their parts to be "down in writing" (from Psalms). All that a competent examiner has to do to see whether God designed mankind to have a range of motivations is to look over the "design specification document". God himself can certainly make the specs available. If a questioner is incompetent to examine the specs, then God wins. If a questioner questions the specs, God can enlighten him. To claim that only a field test could answer the question of motivation, as You Know and his beloved Society do, is to claim that God is incompetent.
That's an interesting argument. What you are neglecting is that humans and angels are made in God's image. We are not insects that are programed to do certain things. Since God is the personification of love, and we, being in his image, are capable of giving and recieving love. In order for love to be genuine it has to be totally voluntary. That's why in order for creatures to demonstrte their love for God they have to have the choice not to love God. God has allowed humans and angels to not love him. The ongoing field test, as you call it, proves to honest observers that NOT loving God results in total disaster. Because God is All-seeing, he has foretold how it will end. That will be brought forcibly home, to the world's horror, in the very near future.
Finally there is a moral question: If God did indeed do as the Watchtower Society claims, then God is a monster unfit to rule. An illustration proves this easily.
What a hypocritical contradiction. Whose morality are you talking about? Yours? You are like the Devil in that respect, in that while Satan challenged Jehovah and implied that he was unfair, he was also counting on God's sense of fairness to allow him time to make his case. Similarly, Satan charged Jehovah with bribing his creatures to love him, and yet what did the Devil do to Christ? He offered him the world if he would just but bow down at his feet. What hypocrisy. And here you say there is no real right or wrong but that God is WRONG! LOL
Suppose a human father is challenged by an adversary that his young children only appear to love him, and obey him only because they're afraid of him, and that given the opportunity they would dump him toute suite.
The problem with your illustration is that God's creatures did dump him. In fact, the whole human race abandoned God in the Garden of Eden because the first two parents of humanity turned their backs on Jehovah. So, God didn't choose to bring hardship upon mankind to prove a point. Mankind went their own way of their free will. So your illustration doesn't take reality into account that humans brought misery and death upon themselves. It is in the context mankind's rebellion, degradation, and suffering that the issue is played out whereby God allows Satan to bring additional hardships and suffering upon his servants as it suits his purpose.
In effect, you have merely taken up Satan's side of the issue by accusing Jehovah of being unjust for even allowing his creatures to suffer unjustly. How like the Devil you are, who in the case of Job, brought untold suffering upon an innocent man to prove that God was unjust! So in your mind even if Jehovah allows Satan to try to prove his challenge, he is still unrighteous for allowing it. How perverse!
Anyone who thinks the above illustration is poor is welcome to challenge it and demonstrate why the father proves himself loving by allowing his children to be tortured and killed by a criminal.
Your illustration is poor because it sidesteps the secondary issue of a creature's integrity in the face of Satan's challenge that all creatures will defect. It disallows the reason Christ forsook his heavenly nature and became a human and went through his ordeal at Satan's hands when he was on earth. Jesus did so willingly. He wanted to do his Father's will. He wanted to step up and take the Devil's best shot to prove that the Devil was a liar. It would have been most unloving of Jehovah to prevent his Son from standing up for his Father. All of us who are similarly devoted to Jehovah's cause want the opportunity to prove our loyalty to God. / You Know
P.S. Best wishes for your daughter's speedy recovery.
