There is no doubt that Adam wasn't the first man. How do believers get around that small fact? (page 7)

mP

@Lovely

Eve the name comes from a mother goddess in middle east culture. Etymology of names is something the WTS never explores because it shows judaism for being just another pagan religion.

Jeffro

Perhaps Adam was the first "civilized" man? Yes, I know it's a theory. If you do not like it, you have to disprove it.

That is a ridiculous notion. Firstly, civilization is known to have started much longer ago than 6000 years. Secondly, 'civilization' didn't start with one person who was 'civilized' surrounded by everyone else who wasn't. Tribal groups became civilised together.

The adherents of the theory of a monogenetic origin of writing trace all writing systems to a single system.

So? Even if that theory were correct, we know the first system wasn't Hebrew. The Hebrew language itself came from Phoenecian. The Watch Tower Society gets itself in even worse knots with the 'origins' of language, claiming at separate times that all languages doand do not have a common root.

Yan Bibiyan

Jeffro,

Weren't languages the result of YHWH's dissatisfaction of a particular construction project...

Jeffro

Yan Bibiyan:

Weren't languages the result of YHWH's dissatisfaction of a particular construction project...

Only if you believe in fairytales.

mP

Funnily enuff if you read the chapter before the Nimrod story they are already speaking in different languages.

HB

On page 2 of this thread, MrFreeze made a short but very interesting point which nobody followed up in detail and I am very curious to learn more about it and hear people's views...........

......."Well where did sin come into play if you don't look at it literally? Did god create us perfect? If not, why would we need Jesus' sacrifice? "

(NB I am not a regular poster and probably unknown to most, so I will just mention for background information, that I have never been a JW or been connected to the religion. Although in my teens I was a nominal 'Christian', I never read the bible much or thought about theology and once I started using rationality rather than emotion on which to base beliefs, the supernatural was soon dismissed. But I am now fascinated by religion (in an academic, not faith based way), and this topic in particular is something I have been pondering recently. I come here as I find it a great place to learn, as I find the average exJW, whatever their current beliefs, knows more about the bible than even vicars, priests and church ministers that I have met).

So back to the topic.

For the last 150 years, science has progressively been pushing religion into a position of defensiveness to the point that now most Christians (at least in Europe, not sure about the US?) believe that Adam, Eve and the snake were allegorical, and they accept evolution as the way God created Man.

I have posed the following genuine question to a couple of Christians in my acquaintance:

......"At what point in the evolution of the human species do you believe 'sin' originated, bearing in mind that evolution shows that we humans are a part of the animal kingdom and early hominids evolved from ape like creatures?"

One just looked puzzled and said she didn't know but would have to think about it, another said it could have been when the human conscience developed. However, on further questioning, he can't bring himself to believe that before that, these conscience-less humanoids were 'perfect'. It is too far a stretch for him to envision a particular time after which every baby was born in sin and therefore prone to death, although the baby's parents were 'perfect' but lacking a conscience. He didn't think there was a gene for 'sin' that suddenly appeared in the human genome and then became heritable from parents.

I read the 'Neanderthal' idea on this thread but that doesn't work well either.

There seems to be a conundrum, and no-one has yet been able to give me an answer. So I would like to know from you guys if there is a credible explanation that fits with Christian teachings?

Leading on from that, if there was no actual time when mankind fell from perfection, how does the Christian message of salvation work? Why did Jesus need to come to die in such a gory, horrific way to save us all from sin, if God created us the way we are through evolution and we didn't rebel?

Correct me if I have understood this wrongly, but from what I have learned, it all seems to work nicely if you believe in a literal Adam. Adam was originally perfect but chose to sin and was then, together with all his descendants, condemned to die. But Adam's death could not atone for sin because God's justice demanded a perfect man to give his blood and Adam was no longer perfect. So Jesus was sent instead. This makes a sort of sense in a fairytale kind of way.

But if Adam is not literal, how does it work? I just don't get it, and nor do the Christians I have asked so far, but they are not very well versed in their theology either so I hoped that exJW Christians here might be able to give a plausible explanation? As I said, I am here to learn.

Comatose

HB your questions are why many of us end up agnostic or atheist. Very good question. Nice to meet you.

Tater-T

good stuf Hb

I've been waiting for some believer to say evolution is HOW God goes it .. then the resurection is out of his skill set ..

James Brown

For the sake of discussing unknown possibilities.

We are living in a computer program.

God is the programer.

God pretty much did what he said he did in the bible or he did what the bible says he did.

So those that he programed to believe, believe and those that he programed not to believe

dont believe.

It's kind of like a game God is playing with his best friend Lucifer.

Whoever has more pieces in the end wins.

God and Louie know all the intricate subtilties of the game how to convert and capture

players. How to distort and change history.

And in the end we are just pieces on their game board.

If we are not destroyed in game one we live on to play in game two.

HB

James Brown... interesting point.

I agree that it is theoretically possible that we could be 'living' in a computer simulation and that the reality we apparently experience is virtual and not actually a fact.

It is a strangely compelling idea as no-one can prove it true or false. But I see no justification for claiming that the chief programmer is God, either the Christian God or any god, or that there is more than one level.

We only know about God because of the Bible which was also theoretically dreamed up by our programmer/s. The programmer could just as easily be an evil being or not be a 'being' at all, but something 'other', who or which has programmed the idea of God into the minds of the people he designed.

There is no doubt that Adam wasn't the first man. How do believers get around that small fact?

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