Is it GOOD that God KILLS BABIES??? Help needed in debate

by Bloody Hotdogs! 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Bloody Hotdogs!

  Hello all,

  My wife and I are atheists, raised and living as Jehovah's Witnesses. It's been a real struggle to keep up the facade, but we've managed - I'm even an MS!

  Anyway, my mother came for dinner the other night and started to talk about the Zone Overseer's special talk. She loved the part about God's generosity: "Jehovah could have given us half a lung; that would have been sufficient. But no, he gave us two full ones! How generous!" I replied that my lack of wings must mean that God is cheep and greedy. She then asked if something was wrong - did I have some secret problem with JWs? I let the cat out of the bag: 'Yes, I do have a problem with JWs, and all religion for that matter. There seem to be certain facts about the universe and our world that don’t jive with doctrine, yada yada yada..... And what's more, I think the supposed actions Jehovah in the Bible are cruel and immoral - specifically the killing of babies....."

  To my surprise, my mother took it all in stride, and offered to help us 'regain God's view on matters' such as child killing. So, later today she is literally coming over to convince us that killing children is good in certain circumstances.

  I was wondering if any of you have gems of reason I could throw her way. Have any of you debated this topic with success? What might be the best approach to take?

  Cheers!!
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  Dismissing servant

  Rule #1: Be very careful...not pusshy or agressive

  Rule #2: Debating a JW it's better to focus on "bible bullshit" than on "WTS bullshit"

  Rule #3: Ask questions. try not to be overtly apostate. Let her think...don't bring all TTATT.
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  trujw

  Yes here is a great gem that took me all of 10 seconds it wrong. The power of the cult is indeed strong if you want to debate genacide. Better the pat religious answer some things are a mystery and gods ways are higher than ours.
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  jwfacts

  Maybe you could ask if God showed more love towards the children he commanded to be killed in war, or the young virgins that he commanded be spared for the enjoyment of the soldiers.

  Numbers 31:15-18 "So Moses said to them: "Have YOU preserved alive every female? Look! They are the ones who, by Balaam's word, served to induce the sons of Israel to commit unfaithfulness toward Jehovah over the affair of Peor, so that the scourge came upon the assembly of Jehovah. And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male."
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  Finkelstein

  Yes with all logical reasoning, for this essentially proves his stature of a loving and just god doesn't it ?

  So killing innocent unknowing children is a necessity.

  Just like he killed the first borns of the Egyptian rulers for captivating his chosen peoples, he could have killed those rulers

  but instead he whacked their children .
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  cofty

  Hi Bloody Hotdogs - love the name.

  Your mother at least has the honesty to admit god is a child-mudering psycho, unlike some of the christin apologists around here who pretend otherwise.

  I would suggest you try ot get her to think of herself as part of Joshua'a army and consider whether she would actually be able to carry out the orders with a good conscience.

  Maybe take a look at these three OT scenarios as examples....

  Let us know how it goes please.

  Edited to add - Be aware she WILL report you to the elders who WILL DF you so think carefully before you proceed.
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  BreathoftheIndianNose

  DON'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION!!! When I was talking/debating my parents as I was on my way out, I found their reactions to be, ehem, interesting. This is what i found.

  I could say bad things about the bible, even though they wouldn't like it, but they could deal with me questioning its thouroughly.

  I could question gods existence and even his intentions, without there being a huge ordeal,( they weren't very impressed but it wasn't the end of the world).

  But as soon as I would say anything bad about the organization things would get ugly! "Don't ever insult OUR religion", they would say.

  Just get her to question things, don't make accusations. Put yourself in her shoes, if you were still an uberdub, and it was your son, how would you react?

  Be careful! Shit can hit the fan with no more than one sentence.

  All the best.

  Nose
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  BreathoftheIndianNose

  Also this subject is something I really tried to get my mom to see as well. She has a real affinity for children, as mothers do, so I tried my best to get her to picture the scene. I would tell her 'mom just imagine what it would have been like for the children living their lives happily in their city when this unknown tribe (Israelites),came and slaughtered everyone, their friends, their parents, their brothers, right I front of their eyes, only to get kidnapped and raped.' I tried to get her to imagine the scene. I could tell it disturbed her but she was able to justify it in her mind by saying that they will be resurrected. I let her know about all the problems that brought about, but she wouldn't hear any of it. So you might expect a similar situation.
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  Scully

  God does not think that killing children is okay, even when it is in sacrifice for his worship.

  ‘Hear the word of the Lord , you kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Listen! I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. 4 For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. ~ Jeremiah 19:3-5, NIV

  They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. ~ Jeremiah 7:31

  They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sought omens and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger. ~ 2 Kings 17:17

  They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded--nor did it enter my mind--that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. ~ Jeremiah 32:35

  According to the Bible, the concept of killing children as sacrificial offerings was a "detestable thing" - it didn't even come up in his heart - and made those who practice it worthy of destruction at God's hands. Would it be any less detestable in God's eyes for JWs to sacrifice their children on the altar of the blood transfusion doctrine?

  Now, I know you're discussing "god" killing children, at Armageddon™ or for such heinous crimes as teasing a bald-headed prophet. But those passages show that "god" disapproves of killing innocent children. However, those passages should give any JW with an active brain stem a jolt, one that might make them have second thoughts about signing their blood cards or the blood cards that their children carry. Those passages can plant a seed, even though you're on a completely different topic at the time.
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  Simon

  I replied that my lack of wings must mean that God is cheep and greedy.

  That is an awesome answer.